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Blood grooves on Bayonets

Article about: by Bochmann But you have to remember too the historic element of the dagger(s) in question as their purpose was originally to be used on it's own or in conjuntion with a sword or to finish a

  1. #51

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    Gentlemen.....and I say that as such! This has been a great thread and I didnt realize it would take off they way it did, which the knowledge of the "Blood groove / Fuller subject has been quite impressive as I have learned something from everyone. There has been some excellent discussion and content backed up with research. So this thread does not become "heated",,everyone here is entitled to their opinions,,but one must remember that although in some parts of the discussion,,there are facts,, there is also theory. The 2 must stay separated. Great discussions are started by theory which leads the to the collector in finding fact. This is great. I have said this before in other threads through out the WRF,, that opinions are what drives discussions...true. Ones opinion is as important as the others. No one person is wrong in their thoughts and this is the most important part that it must be remembered as such. I highly encourage these type of discussions,,... but...do not let it lean to one side,,...keep it in the middle per se`,, if someone else disagrees. I am looking forward to more commentary on this subject as it has been very interesting,,,especially the history behind the knife making itself and the different techniques of blade making.
    One thing I do not encourage is any photos of (( any fallen soldiers )) regardless of what army they came from,,nor any dead bodies, in the end result of a stab wound or bayonet thrust..this will be deleted immediately. Also no more animal photos,,the ones Scout posted are point enough!
    What I would encourage is more photo posting of the various type Blood groove/ fullers,,in this discussion and especially the Japanese types. Although for this thread I do welcome some long bayonet photos from the pre war years or the Civil War,, as long as it pertains to this subject. Its been great guys so far....keep it in the middle Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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  3. #52
    ?

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    Larry, I heartedly concur with your post.
    IMO ALL comments & input have been not only valuable but also interesting.
    I do not see this thread as being 'heated.'
    You might or might not hint to my posts; I sincerely hope, I didnt come on too strong and I must stress, that I respect Wagriffs input in most matters military and have for a long time.
    I hope he didnt take offence at me stating the 'facts,' as I see them. We did go over what others (not I) called 'old wiwes tales' quite a few times though.
    I must emphasize that I agree vehemently about your bit about; There are facts and there is theory.
    I will gladly bow out of the discussion, if thats what it takes.
    But then, I think I already made my point about where I stand on fullers ;-)
    In regards to the pics, I would like to go on record; I did ask PM Larry abbout the pics and both he and and another MOD okayed the pics.
    As I said in the PM; feel free to remove them at your leisure. It makes no difference to me.

  4. #53

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    I refuse any bowing out from any member and ALL POSTS that have been made have been very constructive. My post above is a gentle reminder,, ( nothing more ) to not let it get heated,,,WHICH IT HAS NOT!! Everyones post on this thread is very valuable. I could of not had this topic explained any better elsewhere.... or from any book. I thank everyone and the posted photos. Nothing will be removed,,as this thread has been informative. I am looking forward to more commentary and especially more photos of fuller types. Keep it coming gents Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  5. #54

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    Interesting thread and lots of good info, both anecdotal and empirical.

    I used to study the Viking period and the long swords they used in that period had a "fuller" along the blades length and this feature allows a bigger sword to be constructed without it becoming too heavy to wield, as they were a "slashing" weapon, but still allows the blade to maintain it's rigidity. Blades of that period without a "fuller" tended to be of inferior quality and were either shorter in blade length or had a propensity for bending, both of which puts the wielder of such a blade at a disadvantage when fighting someone with a longer and less bendy blade with a fuller.

    The continuation of the fuller on shorter length bladed weapons, such as bayonets, would still mean that the blade length can be maintained without loss of rigidity and unneeded weight, though as bayonets have become, in the main, shorter over time, it is probably less of a deciding factor in more recent times and more a tradition amongst blade makers.
    Regards,

    Jerry

    Whatever its just an opinion.

  6. #55
    ?

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    Thanks for the clarification, Larry.
    As mentioned, I'm pretty sure, that Wagriff have forgotten more than I'll ever know about some other military subjects.

    Here a few implements.
    G3 bayonet.
    Cold Steel Master Tanto.
    The aforementioned Fairbairn-Sykes. This one was carried in a conflict (I bought it of the soldier) and is an original but post WWII FS.


    The most excellent M9 bayonet designed by the brilliant knife designer, Mickey Finn
    No fuller on this side - nothing to see here, folks. Move along


    ....on the other side of the M9 how ever, there is a fuller ;-)


    IMO the ultimate implement for one use and one use only; a custom makers interpretation of the Bowie blade.
    It has a very wide and thin blade - wider than any bayonet mentioned in this thread - yet its the perfect tool for the job and made to specific specs.
    It slips in and out without any resistance what so ever. It has no fuller, yet the blade works as if stabbing water.

  7. #56
    ?

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    Quote by Bond View Post
    Interesting thread and lots of good info, both anecdotal and empirical.

    I used to study the Viking period and the long swords they used in that period had a "fuller" along the blades length and this feature allows a bigger sword to be constructed without it becoming too heavy to wield, as they were a "slashing" weapon, but still allows the blade to maintain it's rigidity. Blades of that period without a "fuller" tended to be of inferior quality and were either shorter in blade length or had a propensity for bending, both of which puts the wielder of such a blade at a disadvantage when fighting someone with a longer and less bendy blade with a fuller.

    The continuation of the fuller on shorter length bladed weapons, such as bayonets, would still mean that the blade length can be maintained without loss of rigidity and unneeded weight, though as bayonets have become, in the main, shorter over time, it is probably less of a deciding factor in more recent times and more a tradition amongst blade makers.
    I agree 100% and especially find your conclusion in the last two lines significant.

    Viking swords are a very interesting subject. The original viking swords to see in the UK (amongst other places) is a sight to behold. Mindblowing.

    Have you read the Pierce/Oakeshott iconic book "Swords of the Vikings?"
    Ive just finished reading it and found it a great read and even more an important reference work.
    Im currently negotiating with a swordmaker about having a viking sword made.
    Fascinating stuff.
    Last edited by Scout; 11-03-2012 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Inserted correct '%' symbol.

  8. #57

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    Quote by Scout View Post
    I agree 100& and especially find your conclusion in the last two lines significant.

    Viking swords are a very interesting subject. The original viking swords to see in the UK (amongst other places) is a sight to behold. Mindblowing.

    Have you read the Pierce/Oakeshott iconic book "Swords of the Vikings?"
    Ive just finished reading it and found it a great read and even more an important reference work.
    Im currently negotiating with a swordmaker about having a viking sword made.
    Fascinating stuff.
    Hi Jesper, I have not read the book you mention. My local museum had a viking sword blade made, a proper pattern welded example which is a thing of beauty.

    Here are some pictures from when I used to "study" Viking swords.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regards,

    Jerry

    Whatever its just an opinion.

  9. #58

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    Scout makes an excellent point as regards the use of substantial fullers with curved blade swords that were specifically made for slashing. And no one can deny that a slash from a sword blade could either kill or disable another combatant with a single stroke. Or that the British pattern of 1796 Light Cavalry saber had a weighted tip with a flared end designed more for slashing instead of thrusting. With the Prussians adopting a very similar sword in the Preußischer Kavalleriesäbel M 1811 (Blüchersäbel).

    But I may have some slight differences of opinion as to who used what and when, as there were German soldiers in the service of the British Crown, and others who were allied with them but not subjects of the King. With the British pattern 1796 in my experience being more lightly constructed than the Prussian M 1811 (which itself seems to have an earlier and a later version with some very slight differences in construction details). Remembering seeing a quote from Brian Robson’s very well done: “Swords of the British Army”. Who quoting a veteran of the Napoleonic wars, a Captain Bragge of the 3rd Dragoons, who stated: “It is worthy of remark that scarcely one Frenchman died of his wounds though dreadfully chopped, whereas 12 English Dragoons were killed on the spot, and others dangerous wounded by thrusts............”. With the Prussian Army adopting not only the M 1811, but also the Preußischer Kürassierpallasch M 1817 for the heavy cavalry using the French Model AN XI swords that they had taken from the French. Best Regards to All, Fred
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #59
    ?

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    You are right. I have a handful of what is commonly bunched together under the name of Blücher sabres from various sources and it is evident, that there are differences between the sabres, accoding to who used them.
    I have no doubt, that there was a general idea but not a set pattern cut in stone.
    There are tip variations (some heavy and re-inforced, others not so much), handle variations (as can also be seen in the pic of my sabres. Some rounded, others not so much) and also variations to the scabbard. Some are heavy, som have added material to protect the end towards the ground and some have only one rings instead of two rings.

    Demonstration of the effectiveness of the 1796.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZWcyga9-Ag

    BTW for anybody interested in a great movie, I recommend 'The Duellists' by Ridley Scott.

  11. #60

    Default Re: Blood grooves on Bayonets

    I like the video and that guy is very good at handling the sabre. The hatchet point as from what I learned is an important part of the sword that which will ( Monty Python paraphrase )..."will cut thy foe into tiny pieces". I seen how easy that the sword was able to enter the side of beef but the beef is already dead and there is no resistance of pulling the blade out. " Just an observation". So there is no muscle contraction, in this demonstration. Although the samurai sword is very effective ,,the British sabre does equally well if not better. Now Im looking to have a steak dinner tonight! Great You tube link!! Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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