I have to say I missed the scabbard part come to think of it all I have seen and that is few have a leather silver tipped fittings not metal course this could be a replacement scabbard. The bayonet I have seen so few or examined I am at a loss first glance looks good, but wait on the more experienced members on this piece to judge it. timothy
03-01-2014 02:18 PM
2K selling values? That would explain much. At first look this bayonet looks outwardly fine. I am not concerned about the maker's mark-it could well have been produced very late in the Weimar period. As I said earlier, there are at least 4 marks known for this maker and even further variants. This could also suggest an explanation for the sheath. If it was converted late in the Weimar game, a steel sheath would be a plausible choice to use. The rivets may be aluminum? It is difficult to tell from the photographs, but they are non-magnetic, so this is possible. As for the decorations on the guard, as well as the eagle on the shell? Yes, they do appear different in appearance to the Nazi era Police conversion that Larry has shown. Were all of the engraving decorating exactly the same on each one? This, I don't know. To the eye, they do also appear soft-softer than I would like to see. Is this from 85 years of polishing? It's possible, but is it likely? Again it's difficult to say definitively from the photos. As for the grip badge? Again, the detailing looks unusual. These Weimar badges are not that often seen and I've been unable to locate decent photos of any in collections with which to compare it to. I am not concerned with the frog or the portapee. The portapee is not easy to tell in the photos, but it looks to have been tied on some good time ago. A nice color close up of it would help clarify things.
Bottom line here being, I guess, is what are they asking for it? That could give a good clue in itself. It has several controversial aspects to it and for this reason, I would not invest considerable money into it. My impression of it is that it May well be good, but until the searching turns up more examples to do a side by side exam of it to confirm this, I would not be putting heavy money into it.
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
The bayonet is mine I acquired it from a friend who owned it since the early 90's he said it came from a private person not a collector or dealer.
I did no pay the sort of values suggested in previous post's.
Last edited by zephyr4; 03-02-2014 at 07:03 PM.
Just going by one in Wheeler's book it looks like a early Prussian police knot. But I am not totally sure of that If Sleepwalker comes along he will be able to tell you he knows his bayonet portapees and fausten or the knots to me. timothy
George also comments on the clamshell bayonet lengths as: 25, 26, 29, 41, and 43 cm. With the 20 cm blade length seen with the later TR era KS 98 types. And while the knot still seems to be something of a question mark, the frog it’s on IMO is not. Still believing it to be be a later issue military issue one (albeit somewhat ‘doctored’). With one of the other things that has been discussed back and forth being the Hörster trademark. The 1934 dated Heer/Wehrmacht S. 84/98 (98K) bayonets by Hörster used an “S” code to conceal the maker and were manufactured to the standards of that time. Which is where it gets a little more interesting IMO. Because I also have an early TR period “commercial” example of the S. 84/98 by Hörster with the same type of TM as posted by Vedran without a border. And while multiple different types of Hörster TM’s are seen on various items they are IMO time sensitive. Best Regards, Fred
the Portepee with the web band is a Prussian one made 1915 until 1918. Wartime made for the bayonet with a web band.
Worn by officers and NCO with Portepee.
The frog is mot a police frog... this is the model made for the Luftwaffe since 1940. The rivets are made out of Alu and the waschers are made of steal. This mixture i know from the maker Breme Walsrode... is there any maker stamp?
The bayonet itself - when it is a Original - is not a service peace (the blade is to short and has the wrong form) ... it is called a Extra-Seitengewehr... privat bought.
Thanks for the info Sleepwalker, I cannot see any maker marks on the frog.
Sorry to be late to the party. I think, at first blush, that this bayonet looks OK. Several elements are of concern but based on the pictures, are by no means dispositive of whether the bayonet is in fact period or a humped up example.
The knot, as has been mentioned, is an early Preussen example which might predate the the bayonet's presumed manufacture date but could still be appropriate. I've seen several of these knots on older Polizei bayonets so I suspect it's acceptable. The frog is not correct & was probably added at some later date.
Clamshells were produced from the Weimar era all the way up to & continued into the NS zeit. I think they could have been privately purchased up to about 1938 or so as they still appeared in period catalogues & on special order items. The maker's mark was of initial concern for me since this is a later Horster mark & if the bayonet were produced still within the Weimar era, should have had an earlier Horster mark IMHO. Although one could still purchase a Polizei clamshell in the 3R, I suspect it would have been manufactured with the 3R grip emblem. And if it were purchased by a Polizei officer in the 3R, why would he want a seitengewehr with a throwback grip emblem?
The size of the rivets looks appropriate for a Weimar bayonet but they do look relatively new. They're not even oxidized slightly & I don't like that as my understanding is Weimar rivets should be not be aluminum. The large, oversized rivets that we're all so used to seeing are generally seen on Weimar produced but 3R reworked "cut down" bayonets. Any of the 3R produced "non-cut down" Polizei bayonets I have all show smaller rivets but they almost always show wear & color commensurate with age.
The blade size is a little bit of a concern, as was mentioned previously by Fred, George Wheeler's excellent tome Seitengewehr lists the known blade lengths as 25 cm, 26 cm, 29 cm, 41 cm & 43 cm. The 20 cm examples are usually seen as late war period produced examples. Along with this is the steel KS98 type scabbard which when found on a Polizei bayonet, is usually the later war time period when requisite supplies (including leather) were in quite short supply. My feeling is, if this bayonet were produced in the Weimar era or even in the early 3R, it would have had a leather scabbard with plated fittings & not a KS98 type scabbard.
Looking at the piece as a whole, the fit & finish is pretty good & what I'd expect on a Polizei bayonet of this era. Usually the bogus Polizei bayonets are easier to vet as being bad, particularly those wood grip plate WKCs we see on Eban & the occasional dealer site. This bayonet is remarkably different from those, it still could be a more modern attempt at a parts/Frankenstein bayonet or an outright fake. It's impossible to give a definitive answer on it without either a slew of better pics or an in-hand inspection but while it appears pretty well made, I'd have to say there are a number of concerns I have about it's veracity in general.
A few more pictures hope they are better than the last one's, I forgot to clean the oil off the blade.