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Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

Article about: Here is commercial 84/98 W.K.C. that I believe is a early one or at least before 1940 These are interesting bayonets Wheeler in Seitengewher book states they were for Commercial sales NSDAP

  1. #1

    Default Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    Here is commercial 84/98 W.K.C. that I believe is a early one or at least before 1940 These are interesting bayonets Wheeler in Seitengewher book states they were for Commercial sales NSDAP contracts and possible Police contract and WSS private purchase. This one is without Waa on bayonet or scabbard. Let me hear your views. timothy
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  3. #2

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    Hello,

    this bayonets never were private purchase.

    The name "commercial" is IMO a wrong circumlocution and i don´t know who create such appellation (i´m also wondering in other cases about the appellation).

    - > WaA + serial number on blade = German Waffenamt contract
    - > WaA + serial number on pommel or crossguard = Portugal contract
    - > without WaA on the pommel, WaA under the grips + "o" or "a" on the underside of the spine = Export contract to Spain
    - > without WaA = German State authority contract

    two exceptions exist... WaA + "o" - Police eagle marked bayonets taken out of Export stocks for the german police
    and bayontes with WaA marking without serial number taken out of the export stocks for Portugal in 1942/43, may be for the police too. But these exceptions are easy ton recognize.

    The missing WaA acceptance indicates only, that those bayonets were not a contract of the Waffenamt. A WaA stamp is no property stamp and Export bayonets have them too.
    The Waffenamt pay for his order... so this is also "commercial".

    The bayonets without a WaA acceptance were ordered from the state authority's Polizei, Zoll, Zollgrenzschutz, Luftschutzpolizei, Bahnschutz, Postschutz and SS
    ( The Waffen-SS under the high command of the Wehrmacht (the most Waffen-SS untis were...) get the equipment from Wehrmacht stocks ), in the same way the Waffenamt ordered bayontes.

  4. #3

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    Once again very informative Sleepwalker this bayonet was vetern bringback I am third owner. So this kind could have been Polzei, Zoll customs luftschutzpolzei or railroad Banschutz Postschutz and SS Probably no way to know without one of these agencies property mark correct? Thanks again timothy

  5. #4

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    Hello,

    without more Information today nobody can see which of that authority´s or the SS has used this bayonet.

    The Postschutz use property marks ("RP") and get the bayonets only from one Maker (A Contract with P. Weyersberg) until ca. 1942. After this, the Postschutz became a Part of the SS and was called SS Postschutz. After this time the SS-Postschutz gets equipment out of SS sources too.
    An early WKC possibly (made before 1942) possibly was not used by the Postschutz... since 1942 by the SS-Postschutz possibly yes.

    Regards

  6. #5

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    Sleepwalker first of all thanks for info it is always amazing just off topic but have you ever considered writing a book on the Seitengewher there some out there but most are outdated and obselete. I think with your vast knowledge I would look forward to obtaining a copy or maybe you have. Thanks timothy

  7. #6

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    The use of the same type of logo or trademark as seen on private purchase blades may have been what inspired the use of the expression “commercial”. But it was in use long before I first acquired one, so I cannot say that it was actually the reason that earlier collectors began using the term. That said, there does not seem to be a reason to assume that the military style bayonets without Waffenamts (or with in some cases) were not authorized or sanctioned by government officials at some level for either domestic users, or for export. With the funding possibly from different sources depending on who the customer was.

    With a well represented group from veteran sources being the multiple maker so-called “mid-war commercials” (which included WKC but with black or red Bakelite grips). Which varied from the private purchase type of logos to no logo at all depending on the maker, as is also seen with some of the earlier manufactured bayonets. With as a sidenote, a number of the bayonets in this group paired up with the very late ersatz so-called “breadbag” frogs, with the bayonets themselves often seen in as new or only very lightly used condition.

    With some of the combinations as was described above including German Police bayonets with dates and military type markings (but no Waffenamts) , Waffernamts without other markings that seem to be distinct from the unserialed Portuguese contract examples. And some other variations that crossover into different areas, like the originally military issue “RFV” marked bayonets. Or the coded and Waffenamted “5 digit serial number Tr” marked types of bayonets which did not follow German Army marking conventions. So as can be seen there are lots of variables that can be found. With probably the best way to ID some of the undated ones IMO being to compare it to a dated military example for the type of finishing and perhaps even the grips with some of them. Regards to all, Fred

  8. #7

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    the Waffenamt had special requests for his contract... including the way the maker stamps the hallmark and the serial number instead of the unit marking. This order came out in 1934.
    For the contract of the authority there don´t exist such requests, the the makers stamps like they want.
    P. Weyersberg also stamps a serial number on the authority contracts.

    Yes i observed the fakt too, that late war authority contract bayontes were issued together with "bread bag" frogs. Most (or all) of the maker AWS Solingen. The problem is, today we can´t say for what kind of unit this bayontes are delivered... this can also be police, Luftschutzpolizei, RAD, RFV

    In fact of the RFV (Zollgrenzschutz) the S84/98 were often taken from wehrmacht stocks, together with weopons, belts, buckles etc.
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  9. #8

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    the Waffenamt had special requests for his contract... including the way the maker stamps the hallmark and the serial number instead of the unit marking. This order came out in 1934.
    For the contract of the authority there don´t exist such requests, the the makers stamps like they want.
    P. Weyersberg also stamps a serial number on the authority contracts.

    Yes i observed the fakt too, that late war authority contract bayontes were issued together with "bread bag" frogs. Most (or all) of the maker AWS Solingen. The problem is, today we can´t say for what kind of unit this bayontes are delivered... this can also be police, Luftschutzpolizei, RAD, RFV

    In fact of the RFV (Zollgrenzschutz) the S84/98 were often taken from wehrmacht stocks, together with weopons, belts, buckles etc.
    I’m not quite sure of the intended meaning, but Weyersberg was the maker I had in mind who for a short period used the military style markings on German Police bayonets along with a numbering system. And they were also using the standard German Army numbering system before they manufactured that special batch of bayonets with the “5 digit serial number Tr” group of bayonets.

    With some of the earliest TR era “commercial” (for lack of a better term) bayonets the narrow blade unmarked rust blued variety, with perhaps an added marking many of which have been linked to the German Railway system. And here and there possibly an early Waffenamt on an internal part, but that is not common. With wood grips, and in many respects not unlike the early rust blued German Police “sunburst” wood gripped examples with the Coppel private purchase logo/TM. Which of course as I know you are aware of, Wehrmacht/Army production in 1934 using a number code. With the later style of private purchase logo/TM seen with the bayonet that was just posted, but as I'm certain you already also know that varies by maker.

    With the mid-war “commercial” bayonets in times past being a topic of some interest and long discussions as one by one the possibilities were discussed. With if I can find some of the notes, and my recollection is correct, the German Police as the most likely candidate for the bayonets from the five different makers. Which seemed to reflect some kind of parity with the military contracts. With the SS that had control of the German Police, also being in control of the KZ’s. Which was suggested as a possible source for the “breadbag” frogs in the southern area of Germany where the U.S. and French veterans acquired them. But not in the Northern area where the UK forces were, which became one of the determining factors. Best Regards, Fred

  10. #9

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    P. Weyersberg used only a numbering system, but not the same as for the Waffenamt contract.
    Police Eagle B bayontes have that numbers.
    You can also find Reichspost Bayontes with that numbers.
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  11. #10

    Default Re: Commerical 84/98 W.K.C.

    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    P. Weyersberg used only a numbering system, but not the same as for the Waffenamt contract.
    Police Eagle B bayontes have that numbers.
    You can also find Reichspost Bayontes with that numbers.
    Hello, Some very nice bayonets I have the Paul Weyersberg German Police bayonet with the Police marking inside the muzzle ring and a serial number. And a Reichspost marked bayonet with five digits, but the five digit Weyersberg bayonet that I was referring to has five numbers followed underneath by the letters "Tr" (xxxxx Tr) and uses the German Army "crs" code. And a "mid-war" example with just a serial number and red Bakelite grips. With the other bayonet that I was making a reference to also having a serial number with the Police marking on the spine of the blade, but no date. Using instead the P. Weyersberg (military style) marking on both it and the scabbard which has a 1940 date. And while my image is not the best, I think that it can be seen there are no Waffenamts on the pommel (or for that matter anywhere else). Regards, Fred
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    Last edited by Frogprince; 07-24-2013 at 03:03 AM.

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