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German captured bayontes

Article about: Nice Polish rework Is mine the model 28? it is a little different. timothy

  1. #31

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Nice Polish rework Is mine the model 28? it is a little different. timothy
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  3. #32
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    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Nice Wz.27 by Sleepwalker. Timothy You have a Wz.28 reworked by germans with removing barell ring and blueing.Looks like in german scabbard and frog.

  4. #33

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Thanks AndyB I couldn't remember the model the way you see it it came from Vet this way police not didn't fare to well it is in bad shape. timothy

  5. #34

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Hallo,

    yes timothy you have a german reworked Wz.28. The muzzle ring was removed and the bayonet was blued. This is a scare version.

    The knot indicates a use by the police or a police battalion.

    The Wz. were used by the germans with and without the muzzle ring. Most of the were blued, but also not blued ones were used.
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  6. #35

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    From my own perspective when discussing captured bayonets I think that perhaps there should be a distinction made between those that were captured in battle, or military stores, and those made in the factories that the Germans at some point took control of. With the first two groups being essentially original issue bayonets made by or for the country of origin. With the first pictures a side by side pair of Russian Tokarev rifles ‘in use’ (Selbstladegewehr 259(r).

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    And the next of a vet acquired fully original Lithuanian M 24L that was in a Luftwaffe frog with corresponding wear marks from carrying the bayonet.

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    And the third category which touches on a number of other types, with just a little more focus here on the captured Czech bayonets which have been briefly touched on. With the one on top an original Czech Army issue Vz 24 that has had only some accountability numbers added to it. Which is above an unconverted (ie: factory original) full muzzle ringed Waffentamted SG 24(t). That itself is above the more commonly seen 1942 vintage Waffenamted SG 24(t) made under German control at CZ/Brno (Tschechoslowakische Waffenfabrik AG Brünn).

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    With the Technische Lieferbibedingungen (TL) controlling the systematic reworking of at least a number of those mentioned or posted here dated very late in 1942, but I cannot speak to the dates of all of the TL's that were published. And many of the captured (and some OEM types) seen mixed in with successive waves of imports years ago especially from Eastern Europe. Some of which had been reworked once again. With those batches of bayonets where a lot of the different variations seem to have surfaced in the U.S. Which were then eagerly snatched up by both U.S. and those buyers from elsewhere who regularly attended the larger shows. Regards to all, Fred
    Last edited by Frogprince; 07-16-2013 at 01:38 AM. Reason: minor typos-clarifications

  7. #36

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Hello,

    the main differences are assumed and captuerd bayontes.

    Mannlicher bayontes in Austria and the Vz.24 bayonets auf the Czech army are assumed weapons, because the WWII was not in progress.
    The Vz.24 ( S24 (t) ) ware build since 1939 until 1943 in booking of the Waffenamt and for export reasons. In 1943 the production of the Vz.24 were stoppend in favor of the production of the k98k, also the bayonet production stopped.

    Other ones were captuerd in Poland, France, Belgium, Norway, Russia, Yugoslavia, Greek, North-Aftrika by their armys or in stock of factorys (like by the belgian FN).

    Only in two occupied factory were produced bayontes, the radom facility in Poland and the Weapon factory of Kongsberg in Norway. captuerd bayontes habe no WaA proof (because they are proofed by the former owners), only new production hast a proof... only the S 139 (p) made End 1941/Beginning 1942 out of stock parts in Radom and the new made S 102(n) since the beginning if 1942.

    I know the Lithuanian M 24L, i have one without muzzle ring. The model called by the Germans Seitengewehr 139(r)

    Regards

  8. #37

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    More outstanding information Frog prince and Sleepwalker I love this thread. timothy

  9. #38

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Hello,

    the main differences are assumed and captuerd bayontes.

    Mannlicher bayontes in Austria and the Vz.24 bayonets auf the Czech army are assumed weapons, because the WWII was not in progress.
    The Vz.24 ( S24 (t) ) ware build since 1939 until 1943 in booking of the Waffenamt and for export reasons. In 1943 the production of the Vz.24 were stoppend in favor of the production of the k98k, also the bayonet production stopped.

    Other ones were captuerd in Poland, France, Belgium, Norway, Russia, Yugoslavia, Greek, North-Aftrika by their armys or in stock of factorys (like by the belgian FN).

    Only in two occupied factory were produced bayontes, the radom facility in Poland and the Weapon factory of Kongsberg in Norway. captuerd bayontes habe no WaA proof (because they are proofed by the former owners), only new production hast a proof... only the S 139 (p) made End 1941/Beginning 1942 out of stock parts in Radom and the new made S 102(n) since the beginning if 1942.

    I know the Lithuanian M 24L, i have one without muzzle ring. The model called by the Germans Seitengewehr 139(r)

    Regards
    Hello Sleepwalker,

    You are correct in that the takeover of Austria and Czechoslovakia was not like the invasions of France and Russia (etc). With the forced ‘assimilation’ or ‘absorption’ of Czechoslovakia probably a much better choice of words than captured as in a shooting war - so I stand corrected. And readers who are curious might want to look at the 1938 “Munich Agreement” where Czechoslovakia was not even invited, the earlier 1937 German invasion plan Fall Grün, and the politics of the time. And with that said, I still think that the difference or net effect of how the bayonets were acquired on the 1942 or later conversion/refurbishing program for the non SG 84/98 bayonets was essentially either very small or perhaps even non-existent. Irrespective of whether a bayonet was taken as the result of combat, or as the result of a country being forcibly incorporated into the greater Deutsches Reich.

    So at least from my perspective it seemed reasonably logical to open it up to the larger group of conversions which are noticeably different than the earlier period regular refurbishing of Wehrmacht issued SG 84/98‘s. Especially when one considers that many of the captured or “acquired” bayonets from other countries were modified in the same seemingly random fashion. ie: Appearing to have been done by an unspecified number of scattered small shops that: 1) either - could not for some reason follow the published specifications 2) could possibly have had some language related issues which helped create confusion as to the desired end result(?) 3) or possibly a combination of both, with the end result being the many variations that are seen. With as far as I know, just one approved specification per type of bayonet. Which does not seem to compare that favorably (IMO) with the relative consistency of the earlier periodic German armory/other reworks of the SG 84/98 bayonets which were still being done into 1940 and 1941.

    Which brings me to the transitional rifles which can be a problem when trying to fix a date, which is also a problem with some of the bayonets. With my experience with the standard new production patterns from CZ for the Germans as follows: G33/40’s from Brno with 1940 dates and the “945” maker code seem to be well accepted as the first year of new production for the Germans. With the unmodified from the Czech pattern WaA63 marked bayonets also first from the Brno factory, with a later letter coded 1942 series. Likewise from the factory at Bystrica, the unmodified Eagle/607 (Waffenamt) marked bayonets, and then some later blued no muzzle ring examples. With the termination in 1942 of both the G 33/40, and the G 24(t) marked rifles from Bystrica, with both factories then turning to manufacturing the Kar 98k rifles in 1942. With as was mentioned, Brno still making the blued Waffenamted German pattern Vz 24/G 24(t) style bayonets with no muzzle rings into early 1943. And then (or concurrently ?) some more Romanian contract examples from Brno that are also 1943 dated.

    Regards, Fred

  10. #39

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Question I have seen the CZ standard bayonets with ring and bright color steel Marked 945 on blade Are these indeed contract for Romania? The ones I have seen bear CZ common markings and no Ampts. timothy

  11. #40

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Quote by timothy View Post
    Question I have seen the CZ standard bayonets with ring and bright color steel Marked 945 on blade Are these indeed contract for Romania? The ones I have seen bear CZ common markings and no Ampts. timothy
    Hello Timothy, The short answer is yes, although I suspect that the blades and muzzle rings were originally sandblasted, and then gray phosphated. With a longer discussion having to do with what U.S. veterans did and did not bring back, imports in general, and some other related issues. And it was the relatively recent imports (but well over ten years ago) of the “945” marked bayonets that helped solve one of the mysteries that had perplexed some U.S. collectors for years (or at least in my part of the U.S.).

    Because while the original finish may be no longer there, and sometimes the markings are obliterated. Enough specimens of the imports survived with the “CM” marking intact to demonstrate that besides those for the Wehrmacht (with Waffenamts) the CZ factory at Brno was also engaged in manufacturing bayonets for Romania. With the example posted below from the 1943 Romanian contract, which was a 3rd Army bring back that was never sent to Romania (the “945” and 1943 dated contract markings are slightly different). Regards, Fred
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