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German captured bayontes

Article about: Nice Polish rework Is mine the model 28? it is a little different. timothy

  1. #41

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Thank you once again Frogprince I never looked at the bottom maybe I should have picked it up it may still be available I know now what to look for great thread on this. thanks timothy

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  3. #42

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    anyone know if the noches in the wood are marking for kills?

  4. #43
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    I sincerely doubt that.

  5. #44

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Hello,

    yes the contracts to Romania have different signs. First a z in circle or double circle with the "CM" mark on the handle and the frog stud. Than the Waffenamtcode "945" with "CM" mark. After 1943 z in douple circle. All this have no WaA mark.

    IMO the captured polish bayonets were used immediately, becuase there were like the S84/98 and interchangeable with the german models. IMO so all bayontes based on the System 98 were used immediately.
    Since 1941 the use of french and Russian captured weapons is documented by manuals and orders.

    Since 1942 the German troops get more and more under pressure, because of the huge loses at the eastern front, so they uses more and more captured material. Most in second and third line front troops, Police or by the troops in captured countries. The released K98 systems go to first line troops. A special fall is Norway and Finland, because of the huge quantity of Krag rifles and bayonets and the complete infrastructure (for rifles, spare parts and ammunition) for the producing and transport.

    Regards

  6. #45

    Default Re: German captured bayontes

    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Hello,

    yes the contracts to Romania have different signs. First a z in circle or double circle with the "CM" mark on the handle and the frog stud. Than the Waffenamtcode "945" with "CM" mark. After 1943 z in douple circle. All this have no WaA mark.

    IMO the captured polish bayonets were used immediately, becuase there were like the S84/98 and interchangeable with the german models. IMO so all bayontes based on the System 98 were used immediately.
    Since 1941 the use of french and Russian captured weapons is documented by manuals and orders.

    Since 1942 the German troops get more and more under pressure, because of the huge loses at the eastern front, so they uses more and more captured material. Most in second and third line front troops, Police or by the troops in captured countries. The released K98 systems go to first line troops. A special fall is Norway and Finland, because of the huge quantity of Krag rifles and bayonets and the complete infrastructure (for rifles, spare parts and ammunition) for the producing and transport.

    Regards

    Hello,

    The letter “Z” inside a circle is also the blade marking on the WaA63 Waffenamted full muzzle ring bayonets. And the smaller double circle/Z is seen on the Eagle/607 Waffenamted full muzzle ring examples, as well as the slightly later Eagle/A 80 blued no muzzle ring types.

    Poland presented an interesting situation because in partitioning Poland, Fabryka Broni (Radom) which was intact and operating in September of 1939, was going to possibly be in the zone that was to be occupied by the Russians. So they started to pack up everything and move to another location, but the matter was resolved in favor of Germany, only to have some “discussions” in Berlin as to who was going to be in control. And with logistics issues in putting all of the pieces back together - all of which combined together caused a one year delay before the factory was back in operation. With limited deliveries of the G 29(p) apparently commencing in 1941, into 1942. But with that said, there are “in use” photos of bright handled muzzle ringed Polish bayonets seen in combat with German forces.

    And from the “in use” photos of what was seen being used (irrespective of the way that they were acquired) there is one well published example that comes to mind of Generaloberst Eduard Dietl. Who was the commanding officer of the 3rd Mountain Division (3 Gebirgs-Division), with white (camouflage) painted helmets and the Czech pattern Vz 24 bayonets being worn by an Honor Guard. With Scandinavia an interesting topic itself (having been on more than one occasion the fortunate recipient of untouched weapons that were used by German forces who were either stationed there or in field operations). With no question that the Germans also on occasion made use of locally sourced weapons. And I think that the 6. SS-Gebirgs-Division “Nord“ might offer some kind of insight as to what first line forces in the field were using. Having in mid-1941 a high percentage of the Czech Vz 24/G 24(t) rifles (which were at least equal to the Kar 98k in quality), which by 1944 was down to roughly 14,000 Kar 98k and Czech G33/40 rifles, and some other types like Kar 98k sniper rifles and G 41‘s (W). As well as a respectable number of captured Russian PPSh-1 submachine guns, and Norwegian Colt-Browning M 1914 (.45 ACP) pistols.

    In 1942 German production did have a decline in quality, but IMO it was more of a gradual decline in the quality of finish which got progressively worse as time went on. But paradoxically they were still contracting for the 1943 CZ bayonets which were still of very high quality, with the worst fault perhaps being the fact that the grip plates ie: the wood grain and surface finish did not always match up to each other (which I think can be seen in the example I posted). But there is also no question that that the losses of the Russian campaign could have been what inspired the conversions. Some of which IMO did not seem to make logical sense with all of the different ways that they were actually done. Which is where I have a kind of “disconnect” from looking at and comparing the 'OEM' manufacturing standards of the different rifles, pistols, and bayonets from the different time periods.

    But, as was stated, when you take into account the 2nd or 3rd line troops, other support elements, Police auxiliaries, militias, German allies ........... who knows?

    Regards, Fred

  7. #46
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    Very interesting thread guys! Here is a picture of captured bayonets I have found in Norway. Mostly polish bayonet I think.

    Best regards
    Arvid
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  8. #47
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    Third from left looks to be of Czech origin.

  9. #48
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    The Germans also used the Norwegian Krag Jørgensen rifle, and they continued too make the bayonet for the rifle during the war.
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  10. #49
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    Quote by Scout View Post
    Third from left looks to be of Czech origin.
    Yes you are right. There are three Czech bayonet on the picture, one Austrian, and the rest are polish.

  11. #50
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    Ive always liked the Krag bayonet. They look good IMO.
    The Krag is a quality rifle as well albeit with a funky mag system.

    So many nice knives around. Id like a folding Beretta bayonet and a 1947 Madsen bayonet. Fat chance of the latter happening.
    What I like and what I can get my hands on are to very different things, LOL.

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