K98 bayonet, need help identifying

[JackD]

I recently purchased a WKC bayonet with matching scabbard (#133) but without any WaA marking. Assuming it to be some sort of commercial model, I took off the hand grips to find a different serial number stamped on the metal, with the matching number of 133 carved into the handle's guard plate (I think that's what it's called). Stranger still, the letters "HG" and "Na" were stamped to the handle, along with a strange symbol. Can anyone offer information of the history of this item and what these markings mean?

[Larry C]

Hi Jack ..well that's 3/4 of the battle won having matching scabbard and blade and also the identity of the Bayonet.

Wait for Anderson or Frogprince to further identify the internal markings. Hang tight Ok ? They will reply


Regards Larry

[Anderson]

Very nice bayonet Jack, and you have pretty much sorted out your own question. One question I would ask; is there any mark on the top or bottom edge of the ricasso or on the half circle muzzle ring?

You've called it "commercial" I would prefer to say "non military contract" I believe the term used was "behoerden" to describe these.
Firstly can we date it? I think from the black/brown bakelite and the fact that the scabbard button has no cross marks, we can date this to around 1940/41. The standard of finish supports that era as well.
Made for who? Non military contract, so for a Reich State Authority that had armed personal. The usual suspects; Polizei, Zoll, Bahnschutz, Luftschutzpolizei and others. I don't think it's Postschutz as they tended to have exclusive contract with Paul Weyersburg and used a RP mark.
WKC did quite a lot of State contract work. That's about as specific I can be, I think a Polizei bayonet is more likely to have the numbers struck on the crossbar as well as small eagle mark on top of ricasso.
Let's see what Fred comes up with.

[JackD]

Both the muzzle ring and ricasso are completely blank. Thank you for the insight, anything that helps paint a picture of its origin and service is greatly appreciated!

[Frogprince]

Anderson I think did a good job of summing it up for the Behörden types now sometimes being referred to as government-authority models. The example here to me looking like it may have have been refinished(?). Not unusual for the time, what was unusual with one WKC that I know of was somehow it got swept up into the Wehrmacht - (Army) refinishing program exhibiting a Depot style marking (most period reworks don't have them). Needing at the moment to refresh my memory of those WKC's that are both serialized and non-serialized that could affect the timing a little - or not. Likewise those that can be attributed via their other markings to different organizations - or sometimes not on a case by case basis because the R.F.V. for example somehow obtained some German Army bayonets to equip its armed elements instead of the Behörden type. Best Regards, Fred

[Frogprince]

PS: The tang markings appear to be internal use factory markings that the users would not have ordinarily seen. FP

[Richie B]

Some information on the circular marking on the inside of the grips identifying the material and manufacturer.

"53 Erst Backhaus und Co., Kierspe"

"The Z3 marking identifies the material as "phenolic resin with layered cellulose filler (ie: paper strips)"

Source k98k forum

German "bakelite" maker codes

[Anderson]

Fred do you think there is any chance those internal tang marks "HG Na" might relate to a subcontractor WKC used?

[Frogprince]

Thanks to Richie B whose contribution of the list and information adds to the forum's data bases. Not a native German speaker myself, some of the information I acquired quite a while ago that’s from the source I used had the language: “Typ Z Phenolharz (Bakelit) mit Zellstoff als Füllstoff”. That I translated as Phenolic resin with Cellulose (which I believe includes wood pulp and/or a chemical wood pulp) as filler.

The German branch of the Bakelite company being one of the five period producers that manufactured the phenolic molding resins themselves. Whereas the list of makers represented those who processed the resins into finished products. Separate and apart from that, other technical data from different sources states that a molding powder was used in conjunction with a technique known as ‘compression molding’. My point being that laminates were used for example with items such as some components for different rifles, but not that I’ve been able to physically see with broken bayonet grips.

As for the internal markings - I got an early start with taking weapons apart and putting them back together in the Army, so it was natural that as a beginning collector if I thought that something I had collected needed attention I did what I thought needed to be done. (Now if a close examination sees nothing amiss I continue to protect it undisturbed.)

Unfortunately at the time I did not physically record my findings instead of just making mental notes. With that said and alerted to the possibility - if an “HG Na” turned up on a bayonet by Hörster or some other makers that could be because that aspect of the work of converting a piece of steel into a weapon was performed by a subcontractor.

I also do recall noticing that some tang markings looked like they were from forging dies themselves, whereas others appear to have been after the machining operations. Best Regards, Fred

[Larry C]

Thankyou Richie, I created a thread on that link and pinned it to the top of this forum.

Regards Larry