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K98 Bayonet with “skeletonized” frog

Article about: K98 Bayonet with the later war straight sided frog that is referred to as a “skeletonized” frog and was developed to fit along side a new folding shovel that was being issued by the mid-war

  1. #31

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    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Hello,

    you can see the frog in the pictures. Since I think any further speculation about a different origin superfluous. This source is quite clear.

    In one piece, the rivets were offset so that it fits better over the belt. The loops in these pieces are sometimes quite tight. The material of the rivets plays less of a role.
    Also, I think that this seam plays no real role at all and is just manufacturer-driven. A conclusion on a Yugoslav production I do not see there. Also with regard to the picture I attached.

    There are different types of "breadbag"-frogs. Of which are turkish others and are mainly found on certain types of commercial S84/98.

    In the case of the Yugoslav frogs, the loop was simply laid and provided with a triangular seam. Rivets were not there.

    Regards
    Hello Sleepwalker,

    A complicated topic, I think that we are looking at this from different perspectives and what I believe that I’m seeing now is the fairly common postwar version of a Yugoslavian frog. As I’m very certain you know, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was created out of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire with essentially a relatively quiet mutual hostility between the factions that changed with the Germans in the picture in 1941. That then later resulted in a dictatorship in control that changed once again later on as the different factions separated themselves. Originally as Serbia and then Yugoslavia having a long history of outsourcing its arms from Germany, Belgium, Czechoslovakia and even Turkey before acquiring machinery from Belgium to start making its own arms. After the war then making the M1948 Mauser rifle in the German Kar.98k style, with the WW II ex-German weapons now added to the mix. Sometimes seen in the original German Kar.98k configuration, and sometimes as just German marked parts as a component of a completed weapon from different (original) sources. My point being that they were not prone to discarding anything if it could be recycled. And simply put, in my experience the “V” type stitching that is usually connected to the two top rivets is not something that was done with TR period OEM-Wehrmacht procured frogs.

    Best Regards, Fred

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  3. #32

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    "As for the picture in question it appears to be from a photography studio. It’s a piece of evidence, but at least IMO not conclusive. That’s because time and again it has been seen that some studio portraits have used studio props, as have some propaganda photos." Frogprince.

    Fred I've seen you trot out the "studio prop" argument to counter photographic evidence in probably three other threads. But just how credible is it, that a photo studio would have in their wardrobe of "props", a ratty skeleton frog for customers in their dress uniform to wear. More likely they would have a nice old traditional one from the Weimar era, if at all. I can't imagine the young man arrived for his photo without a belt, and in all likelihood he brought the bayonet (& frog) with him.

  4. #33

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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    "As for the picture in question it appears to be from a photography studio. It’s a piece of evidence, but at least IMO not conclusive. That’s because time and again it has been seen that some studio portraits have used studio props, as have some propaganda photos." Frogprince.

    Fred I've seen you trot out the "studio prop" argument to counter photographic evidence in probably three other threads. But just how credible is it, that a photo studio would have in their wardrobe of "props", a ratty skeleton frog for customers in their dress uniform to wear. More likely they would have a nice old traditional one from the Weimar era, if at all. I can't imagine the young man arrived for his photo without a belt, and in all likelihood he brought the bayonet (& frog) with him.
    Admittedly bayonets are harder, but I can say with certainty that some studio posed sword photos used props instead of actual swords. And maybe it could just be the imaging - but not in hand with the left hand green arrow there is what looks to me something like a relatively tall black leather leather sleeve of some kind with what appears to be a large light colored interior. And where the right hand green arrow is there is a brighter area that could be a steel scabbard? Sandwiched in between the top of a leather retaining strap that has a frog stud - (yellow arrow) sticking out there is what looks like a third narrow leather retainer from the tip of the green arrow all the way up to a crossguard. In other words it seems to have three horizontal retainer straps (not two) all them underneath the crossguard. And maybe a hole for a screw in the bare area sandwiched in-between. My point being that it's either a factual representation of what is there, or digital artifact, or what exactly ??? If you have a better explanation or sense of the what is in the photo I’m listening. PS: With my apologies, not having any already prepared photos I had to adapt one from an old photo shoot. Best Regards, Fred
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #34

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    You do not always have to talk everything over or invent problems that are objectively not there just to negate information. Objectivities are needed here.

    You always have to be careful when taking pictures in a studio. That's true. That does not mean that all studio recordings are unrealistic or not real. The majority credibly shows the equipment. From the time of the First World War you have to be more careful. Here, however, a fund of the photographer is excluded. In any case, the picture was taken before 1945 and not some time later in Yugoslavia.

    Everything is pretty well visible on the pictures I have attached. A production in Yugoslavia ... for whatever reason ... you can rule it out. The seam alone does not do that. the leather comes from Norwegian booty. The manufacturer can probably look in Norway or one of the many loot and leather recycling points.

    To your photo collage:

    The lighter area on the left (marked with?) Is a knot. But you also recognize in the pictures that I have posted ... on the right side (from the viewer) is a chair. There is no other Scabbard.

    The other "abnormalities" are due to the rather poor resolution of 0,3 MagaPixel.

    The exact nature of the frog stud of the scabbard is not so obvious due to the angle. What I see is not noticeable. In any case, it is an S84/98.

    Your "three horizontal retainer straps" is nothing more than the top seam that is at this point of the frogs on each specimen.

    I have made better pictures again. Now, I think I can see the details better ... even the frog stud agrees .... It is all there ... the seams, the rivets even the small former holes for buckles you can see.

    It is this frog. Not on the side of a Yugoslav soldier after 1945 but before 1945 on a German Landser.
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  6. #35

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    Sleepwalker, Thank you for the much better photo. I've handled late war 1945 dated holsters and some other items that were made in factories or shops that still approximate earlier production. The "bread bags" although fairly consistent not up to par with ordinary makers for the Wehrmacht. But I'm not one to argue with what I'm seeing, so maybe they were something made in a KZ from bits and pieces using recycled leather parts? And I know that recycling started from the time that they entered Czechoslovakia was entered (but not the attachment posted). Best Regards, Fred
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #36

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    Hello,
    Just for info : There are several examples of "breadbag" frogs that have been recovered in eastern France, all of them with S 84/98 bayonets. I know a WWI collector who is convinced that these breadbag frogs are ersatz WWI. He found one of these frogs with a S84/98 bayonet produced during WWI...

    Concerning the period photo that shows the soldier with a skeletonized frog, that's not just a question of bayonet frog here....the guy is wearing a Waffenrock with piped pants...they were long time gone at this time, and he does even have a Troddel....Mummy has kept at home the prewar parade dress and the good boy had his portrait taken like in the good old times...touching...

    There are advanced collectors who consider that the shortened frog that opened this thread is a reproduction made to deceive. They dont like the big shiny rivets at the back.
    Thanks
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