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K98 bayonet with special frog ?

Article about: That is unusual ! - I like these brown bakelite grip bayos.........!

  1. #21

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    Hello,

    the orders of the L.Dv. 224 were for frogs in use... some makers finish the frogs for stock in buff leather and were painted, in case of the Luftwaffe, after issue in schokoladenbraun.
    Other makers produce the frog directly in this color. The most you can find without any laque are unissued new frogs.
    On the other hand, frogs for officers had to be "havannabrown":

    http://www.exklusivtinte.de/images/p...be_havanna.jpg

    So light brown frogs also can be for officers. I see no discrepance to the german orders.


    The trial blue-grey webbing, issued together with the trial blue-grey light summer uniform middle bis September 1941, were for Luftwaffe units north of the Line Neapel-Foggia, Romania and the Balkan, because of the color...
    It was only a trial with low quantity were produced only one time. According to the order in the Luftwaffenverordnungsblatt, no fresh supply were made...for the trial there was only delivered once time.
    The Luftwaffe in the follow time were (new) clothed in khaki since April 1942. The low quantity of the trial uniforms and equipment had to plotted in the Regions i write in sentence one.

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  3. #22

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    Quote by Sleepwalker View Post
    Hello,

    the orders of the L.Dv. 224 were for frogs in use... some makers finish the frogs for stock in buff leather and were painted, in case of the Luftwaffe, after issue in schokoladenbraun.
    Other makers produce the frog directly in this color. The most you can find without any laque are unissued new frogs.
    On the other hand, frogs for officers had to be "havannabrown":

    http://www.exklusivtinte.de/images/p...be_havanna.jpg

    So light brown frogs also can be for officers. I see no discrepance to the german orders.

    The trial blue-grey webbing, issued together with the trial blue-grey light summer uniform middle bis September 1941, were for Luftwaffe units north of the Line Neapel-Foggia, Romania and the Balkan, because of the color...
    It was only a trial with low quantity were produced only one time. According to the order in the Luftwaffenverordnungsblatt, no fresh supply were made...for the trial there was only delivered once time.

    The Luftwaffe in the follow time were (new) clothed in khaki since April 1942. The low quantity of the trial uniforms and equipment had to plotted in the Regions i write in sentence one.
    Hallo,

    I’ve seen frogs that were either postwar (or possibly period but never issued - that are suspect IMO) that were post manufacture painted brown, but that have lacked what I considered to be period Luftwaffe markings. With the two unfinished lighter brown colored frogs that I posted issued but still (IMO) in reasonably nice condition, and with the same date but from different makers, as is another from still another maker that is finished in the standard chocolate brown. I also have a one year earlier unit marked German Army frog that has a natural color (unfinished) leather instead of black, which is not to be confused with some late issue unfinished frogs. So was there perhaps also a periodic shortage of leather finishes like there was with leather itself?? With during peacetime and wartime pistols the normal sidearm of officers, but I think that is most likely a topic unto itself, with submachine guns seeming to have been a better option during wartime for ground forces that needed firepower.

    I was also speaking to primarily field gear such as belts and frogs, and perhaps some additional items that were manufactured with a blue or blue-gray fabric type material for the Luftwaffe, that are equal in quality IMO to the same kinds of fabric items that were made in different colors. As I see no really discernible difference in quality between the olive drab, blue, khaki, green, or combinations of same, tropical frogs ........ until we get into what I consider to be the later, or much later manufactured tropical fabric type frogs.

    With the image with three frogs in it, what I believe to be DAK vintage Luftwaffe khaki tropical frogs. The image with two frogs in it what I believe to be an early issue Luftwaffe khaki example next to a later manufacture khaki frog on the right. The image with four frogs showing the DAK period green, two khaki and green combinations, and an olive drab with a green tie strap. And with the single frog example, showing what I believe to be a fairly late (ersatz) issue tropical frog made with a lightweight khaki material that had to be folded over to give it the necessary stiffness to make it usable.

    ........................

    With my point being that I don’t have an argument with published period regulations that can be looked at to see what was said at the time. And where it’s available I like to look at them myself. Because with some published English translations (re: TR items in general) the translator got it wrong, and some (U.S.) writers who were otherwise clueless keep on repeating again, and again, the errors made by translators who were lacking specific knowledge. (Or alternately, create their own interpretations that have no connection to reality.)

    So I’m not disregarding published period regulations. But I also have to rely on what is in front of me, to see what makes sense and what does not, from my own perspective. Which to me seems to be that they used whatever they had available to make the item, even if it was outside of published guidelines.

    Best Regards, FP

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  4. #23

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    Yes it is still a problem, that after the war not issued, unfinished or stock equipment were mixed with the other issued items.

    In the period until 1943/1944 the regulations were done in the most cases.
    The order to color frog after issue has a long "tradition".

    Since 1942 Officiers, NCO and men get no Bayonet when they armed with a MP or Pistol... In the most cases Luftwaffe units have a second or third class arming... because there were not at the front line

    The blue webbing is the trial version... worn until the end of warm but never produced until long term. I don´t know how high the first and only supply of the blue summer uniform was... but surly not very much.

    The army has dissolved the stocks of tropical clothing and equipment until Mai/June 1944 und gave it to there untis. But the airforce ordes tropical cloth and equipment min. Late 1944 / 1945. This Information you can find in the Luftwaffeverordnungsblatt. Between the khaki webbing of army and air force were no difference (Ausrüstungs- und Bekleidungsnachweisung Tropen April 1942).

    The last two frogs you show were made out of captured british webbing. There still exist pieces with the broad arrow. There were 3 places of production. One of them in the Getho of Litzmannstadt.

    Until 1943 they were different steps of going to the "endwar frogs".... breadbag stripes, captuerd materials... grued quality... and in the end 1945 paper "cellulose" garment.
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  5. #24

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    the latest frog i found... marker mark out of 1945. Paper garment...
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  6. #25

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    Yes, tracking the uniforms is one way to try and figure out who was using what and when, and from what I understand the bulk of the initial issues of tropical uniforms came from firms generally in the Berlin area. With a secondary source for the DAK being France after it fell, and the Netherlands for the Luftwaffe. Then from a relatively limited production base to a noticeably larger number of makers. And I’m in agreement that the blue (or blue-gray) uniforms were more of a short term solution. But one that is directly tied to only the Luftwaffe. Whereas the khaki frogs eventually became more of a general issue (as was commented on) - so there can be some confusion with the later manufactured examples. With (as was also commented on) collectors still having problems in trying to sort out the good items from the rest. With one of the “problems” that a good friend mine faced some time back being a tropical frog that he purchased that at first looked good. But when I took a closer look I did not get a good feeling, so I took a sample thread and tested it. The thread melted and smelled of plastic - not good!

    The “breadbag” frogs were end of war frogs that were captured after the Rhine river was breached. And there are some other improvised frogs that were outside the scope of the occasional depot reworked frogs that are sometimes seen. Having a somewhat different standard for leather frogs. Because besides the appearance and construction, the sense of smell can also be useful. With my experience with the leather frogs being that even with the relatively scarce 1944 dated examples they might not be quite up to prewar standards. But they were still fairly decent bayonet frogs. Best Regards, FP

  7. #26

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    Hello,

    i observed that there were more areas the webbing come from. According to marker stamps and Reichsbetriebsnummern (the Information about the area is the middle part of the number) in the eras of Berlin, Hessen, Sachsen, Provinz Magdeburg and Alsace were also produced huge quantities of webbing frogs, belts and other web-materials. In the most cases, not all, the belts and frogs were distributed by a Lagesa (Landwitschaftliche Genossenschaft), a umbrella company for little firms. The Lagesa made the contact arrangements and organised the secondary distribution. In the area of Berlin you can find companys who produced by there one and with own trade marks (for example C.Riese, O. Jähnke ).

    The blue-grey webbing and summer uniform was a trial before the Introduction of the khaki uniform and webbing. The Information you can find in the Luftwaffeverordnungblatt. Also the information, that this equipment was only produced singular. Order Supply was not possible (see the annex). Because the trial was not so succeed or the khaki garment was rated better.

    In many cases i found the prove for the using of "replacement" frogs in my home area (Rhein, Rheinland-Pfalz) by finds in farms etc. So for example the "skeleton" frog, the "turkish" "Breadbag" canvas frog usw... most together with equipment and bayonets used by the Reichsarbeitsdienst. In corresponding with other finders (most water finds) the use of belgian frogs together with Krag bayontes M1894 at the and of the war at the west- and east front.

    Bt the orders are a very great help... to the most things you can find a correspondent information. Andy and I have found that the "breadbag” frogs were made in Czech area...and often were find together with late war commercial S84/98. There also exits two main versions.. one with cotton and one with canvas garment. In German orders and information writes you can find the instructions for making frogs out of garment, residues, tent fabric usw. You can 1942 also find the information that changes, because out of practical experiences and material requirements, were not longer published. In this case you can find frogs out of plastic (rubber), residues, "pressed paper" and others.
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  8. #27

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    The Bayonet has arrived, Unfortunately not in the condition I was hoping for . Looks like someone used some sandpaper on it and afterwards tried to reblue it. I have tried to take some better pics of the frog, but it's hard on this time of year. The lighting is not good.
    Best
    HB
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  9. #28

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    Blade are marked '43 and the scabbard is marked '44
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  10. #29

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    Non matching - Hope you didn't pay the price of a matched set,
    especially with the damage to the scabbard.........
    Regards,


    Steve.

  11. #30

    Default re: K98 bayonet with special frog ?

    I paid approx what it is worth. Just didn't make as good a deal, as I first thougt.
    By the way... it is still matching, just not the date of year Funny.....
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