K98 bayonet vs. The Firemans dress bayonet. differences
Hello Gents....I had just recently moved a screaming example of a Firemansdress bayonet out of the K98 forum and into the main dagger forum..for reasons of others and that even I myself think it is not bayonet worthy....but a separate organization..and entity. below are 2 random pics one of Maximus firemens dress bayonet...and Timothys K98 bayo.
My question for discussion what is it that separates these 2 bayonets....or knife / bayonet. What makes the Firemans bayo not a K98? Whats are he characteristics and the history of the Firemans organization...and the separate idea of the K98 bayo. I would more than welcome any comment or response and this discussion is mainly for those guys who collect these types. If need be I will Move maximus Firemens bayo back to the K98 forum..or leave it in the main forum. What are your thoughts? below are 2 photos ...1 of each type. The thread is yours Regards Larry
It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!!
- Larry C
One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C
“The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill
10-18-2013 10:18 AM
one point and the main different:
the firemen "knife" is not a bayonet... this is a Faschinenmesser
So the original and correct terms are Extra-Seitengewehr (what you call a dress bayonet etc.) and the Faschinenmesser / Feuerwehr Faschinenmesser.
Also the German bayonets have own designations and not the designation of a rifle, because they can be used with different German or foreign rifles. Only the service bayonets had this designations (most the year or years of development by different parts (= Seitengewehr 84/98 = short blade Model 1884, hilt model 1898, S98/05 = hilt model 1898, blade type 1905).
All the others are only Extra-Seitengewehre.
I’m not a native German speaker, and make no claims as it regards knowing the intricacies of the language. That said, I think that in everyday English language usage “Extra”, as in Extra-Seitengewehre or Extrasäbel, could be considered a “Dress” sidearm for wear off duty when in uniform. I also think that the use of “Bayonet” is and always has been wrong no matter what any English speaking writer has said because they were never designed to be attached to a rifle.
And while I think that the use of Faschinenmesser or Feurwehr-Faschinenmesser is preferred to avoid any confusion with Dress Bayonets. I have to add an exception that should be be taken in context - because Eickhorn does list in its period catalog a Feurwehr-Seitengewehre. Which I believe roughly translates to “Fire Department-Sidearm”. And if somebody wanted to use “Feurwehr-Seitengewehre” for an Eickhorn manufactured example they would be correct - but not a “Bayonet”. Regards, Fred
Last edited by Frogprince; 10-19-2013 at 01:15 AM.
Reason: typo correction
Extra don´t mean Ausgeh... or dress... it is correct, that EM use them (mostly non-functional ones) for walking out. But senior NCO and officers often bought them for service use in a useable configuration.
This is the reason, that they called "Extra".
Also the German Reichspost bought such models for service use.
The Faschinenmesser were issued for service use... as a tool. In the firemen Regulations is shown who and when had to wore a Faschinenmesser.
In General in German a "Bajonett" (out of the french speech) only mean a fixabel "needle" for a rifle... and only for this function - like a socket bayonet... (without a handel etc...)
In former times soldiers carried a Bajonett (for the rifle) and a Sidearm (like an Infantry saber) together. A fixable Sidearm made the bajonett dispensable.
A Sidearm / Seitengewehr can be all other... a Saber (Offiziers-Seitengewehr) a fixable or a non fixable knife, infantry-saber or a Faschinenmesser.... but not a Bajonett.
The german designations show this... a Bajonett is called Bajonett... and a Seitengewehr is called a Seitengewehr... a Faschinenmesser etc.
The this knowledge is imported, when collection German sidearms... they all have names... there is no reason to create new wrong ones.
Once again I’m not an expert on the German language, but I believe that “Extra” itself translates directly to “Special” as in a ‘something extra’ - ‘added on’ as in a model or version that sets it apart. With the Eickhorn company in an earlier catalog listing higher (and lower) grades of “Extra” designated blades that were only for enlisted men (officers had their own models). Using the term “Extra” in front of the specific designation for the blade, with for example “Extrasäbel” used for the private purchase swords that were not government issue, and intended for wearing off duty by enlisted men. With senior grade NCO’s (mit Portepee) accorded many of the same privileges as officers, but having swords provided to them at government expense. And during the TR era Army officers having available to them as private purchases (while they were still being manufactured) daggers and swords. With pistols for combat operations, that became mandatory after a certain date for ordinary off duty wear.
With the sometimes seemingly interchangeable use of Seitengewehr versus Bajonett something of a puzzle. Because we seem to have “Bajonettfecten” for bayonet fighting in contemporary TR era use. But “Seitengewehr, planzt auf!” for fix (attach) bayonets, and “Seitengewehr, an Ort!” unfix bayonets during the same period. And there may be some reason why that is which is beyond my limited knowledge.
That said, I do understand the technical point about “Bajonett” as an early form of “needle” bayonet, that is seen in some German texts as “Dillenbajonett” (ie: socket bayonet). Which I think illustrates some of the problems with translations. With the late Anthony Carter who translated Klaus Lübbe’s GERMAN SIDEARMS AND BAYONETS - (DEUTSCHE SEITENGEWHRE UND BAJONETTE) following the author’s lead in ignoring the “Extra” factor which is clearly seen in period catalogs. But adhering to the use of “Faschinenmesser” for the Fire related type of blades. And while we in the 21st century can argue the merits of this point of view or that. I’ve always found it exceedingly difficult to argue with printed Army regulations. Or what is in period catalogs that was put there by those who were actually manufacturing the items. Regards, Fred
To understand the "Extra" you must also go back to the orders for officers... not only the catalog, witch are often not 100% correct. Since 1915, refreshed by the order of 1925, officers were allowed to use Extra-Seitengewehre, if they were usable and have the same dimensions as the S84/98 or S98/05. They also can by used in Service.
There are also two parts... one called "Extra-Seitengewehr", the other "Eigene Seitenwaffen". In the most cases... "Eigene Seitenwaffen" are the self buyed - not useable - walking out versions of the EM. It was forbidden to use them in service (because there were not useable).
Extra in the German military context means - self buyed, more then / over the service budget - like a -extra- (once more) peace of cake.
To the German names:
1 = bajonett (french model and french name in the origin) - no handel, Dille or needle
2 = Seitengewehr
Sleepwalker, This will be brief and from memory as I’m short on time at the moment. First, my thanks for posting the Weimar era regulations , they are very interesting and will require some further study. And while I still have fair amount of trouble with the Fraktur type script, it seems to follow what I recall of the earlier regulations to a limited extent as it regarded the authorized types of weapons with some obvious changes due to the consolidation of the individual state armies. With WWI officers allowed bayonets as sidearms in lieu of swords because they (swords) were impractical in trench warfare. And as a matter of interest (IMO) while most of the WW I era (presumably officer types with the grip emblems) seemed to actually be capable of being attached to rifles and made differently. A fairly large number of the ordinary “Extra” types of bayonets looked OK but did not actually fit rifles, and in some cases were even just simulations. Also a matter of interest (IMO) is the fact that export models of swords for example of the enlisted type (of the same "milspec" type as sold to the German government) cost roughly twice as much the “Extra” types - even including the extra etchings and plating (etc.). Being lighter and much less robust in their construction, and not gauged or government inspected. And while I’ve never seen a metallurgical analysis of the “Extra” types I have seen some for the later era RZM inspected blades which were as we say here: “all over the landscape”. With my point here being that “visual” inspectors were not in the same category as the trained German Army inspection personnel. With the posted regulations circa 1925, it was 10 years later for the first large scale TR era Army order for swords for the Unteroffizier mit Portepee with initial deliveries in 1935. With regulations in general sometimes subject to change, with the Luftwaffe a good documented example IMO of that effect, but a little beyond the scope of this discussion and I’m starting to run out of time.
You’ve also introduced the term "Eigene Seitenwaffen", but I’m not sure just what the distinction is that you are making between them and the “Extra-Seitengewehr"? And what I also would ask you is why some German museums seem to use “Interims” when describing certain items that would fall into the “Extra” category for this discussion? Regards, Fred
PS: The bayonet that is on top is not of German manufacture, but a Russian 1891 series Mosin–Nagant?
This thread is about the TR era Fire Faschinenmessers which has expanded to include the “Extra” designated bladed sidearms - so an effort was made to keep this brief.
There is not and never was an a disagreement that when swords were withdrawn from service in WW I that some officers acquired private purchase (mostly) KS 98’s (or trench knives) to replace them. With the Weimar era Army not originally taken into account, but now that it has been mentioned, I think that especially earlier it can be reasonably said that they used a lot of ex-Imperial sidearms with those from Prussia extremely well represented. And a reading of the regulations seems to indicate not the KS 98’s of the earlier era being used, but S 84/98’s and S 84/05‘s. With that being the description of a military model of a bayonet and possibly something of a gray area because after the war some were kept by the government. While others ended up in the service of other governments, or were sold to commercial enterprises, and there are some reworks to a “dress” bayonet configuration with other enhancements for some of those reworked bayonets.
With the following an excerpt from a WW II period U.S. Army technical publication: “Production and issue of the Waffenrock was suspended in 1940, and the service or officers' ornamented uniform was worn for dress occasions instead. However, the Waffenrock remained authorized for walking out for those who had or could purchase it; and it was a widespread if unauthorized practice to loan a soldier a Waffenrock from regimental stocks to get married in, as evidenced by many wartime wedding photos.” Service Uniforms: “Ausgehanzug. This is a type of uniform which might be termed "walking-out dress". In the peacetime Army, it was a most important uniform, since it gave noncommissioned officers and enlisted men an opportunity to display themselves while on pass ......... belt with saber (for senior noncommissioned officers) or decorative bayonet (for junior noncommissioned officers and men) .......... “
With the following an abstract from a translation of an article titled “Me Fecit Solingen” published in 1936 in Die Klinge, describing the blades then being made for the organizations and individuals in that period with emphasis on private purchases:
The Army: Service sidearms are for sale to the Army only. But for the Extra-Waffen ie: Sidearms, daggers, and swords that were mostly worn as ornamental pieces...... Sidearms (bayonets) for NCO’s without the officer’s knot, and the rank and file enlisted men, described as Extra Sidearms. And enlisted men’s sabers for off duty mounted soldiers...... And the Officer's model sabers for officers, and NCO’s with the officers knot, and daggers for all of those with the knots......
And for the Fire Brigades a new regulation which rescinded earlier ones: On duty the fire axes, and off duty the Faschinenmesser. And while it did not address the earlier regulations in detail, it did state that the change was due to a lack of uniformity.
Regards to all, Fred
yes this is a russian one... the germans made since the modell 1864 no bayontes any more... only Seitengewehre.
But in WW1 und WW2 the German captured during 1914-45 a lot of bayontes and use them.