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K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

Article about: I moved these last few posts to its own thread and into the K98 forum as This subject does not belong in the SS forum. The subject of what looks to be a dress bayonet in combat should make f

  1. #1

    Default K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    I moved these last few posts to its own thread and into the K98 forum as This subject does not belong in the SS forum. The subject of what looks to be a dress bayonet in combat should make for good discussion.

    Noticeably in Freds photo is what looks to be an afforded view of a dress bayonet being worn by the soldier on the left. Interesting!! What is visible is the silver between the grip plates and the rifle slot.

    I would have to disagree that the finish on the bayonet is a blued shiny finish. My observations see a bayonet underneath a soldiers am which is shadowed,,, but even within a shadow,, any silver plated fitting would still stand out,, even in black and white. Comments?? Regards Larry
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    Last edited by Larry C; 04-19-2013 at 03:41 AM.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

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  3. #2
    ?

    Default Re: SS Chained Type II with SS Number and initials on the Tang Nut

    Larry interesting observation on the soldier with the bayo on his left. I had to blow up the picture, but it sure looks like a dress bayonet? it looks more chromed than blued. thin steel between the grip plates, instead of the flash guard. is it just my eyes ?

  4. #3

    Default Re: SS Chained Type II with SS Number and initials on the Tang Nut

    It's actually brush polished steel and no flashguard as was noted. But I can see where it might seem to be something else, however a comparison and closer examination will show that it’s a Czech Vz 24 bayonet which were finished differently, and made w/o flashguards. With the SS soldier pictured also having a Czech Vz 24 rifle, and there is correspondence from Himmler attesting to his being very pleased with the quality of ex-Czech weapons (which were very well made) that were made available to his armed formations after Czechoslovakia was absorbed into the expanded Reich. Being only one of a number of photos that clearly show ex-Czech weapons in the hands of SS soldiers. Best regards to both, Fred
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  5. #4

    Default Re: K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    I dont know Fred,, looking at the combat photo and the shadow beneath the soldiers arms seems to show a brightness more than what a polished steel may produce in photos. Brushed steel IMO in a black and white photo will more or less blend in with the half tones of the photo. The dress bayonet itself..will show a white tone although silver in real life. The soldier on the right being helped looks to have the brushed steel type bayonet. Thoughts anyone on a Dress bayo used in combat and also any comments on black and white photos and what the seem to show? Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  6. #5

    Default Re: K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    Larry

    I agree with Fred on this one especially if the rifle is a vz24.

    Additionally many dress bayonets don't actually fit on rifles particularly well, the construction of some with only a partial tang makes them weaker than the standard issue. Regulations would not, I suspect allow a soldier to carry such a bayonet.

    Regards

    Richie

  7. #6

    Default Re: K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    Quote by Richie B View Post
    Larry

    I agree with Fred on this one especially if the rifle is a vz24.

    Additionally many dress bayonets don't actually fit on rifles particularly well, the construction of some with only a partial tang makes them weaker than the standard issue. Regulations would not, I suspect allow a soldier to carry such a bayonet.

    Regards

    Richie
    Larry,

    Richie is (absolutely IMO) correct for the reasons he stated. Overall flimsy construction with many having non-milspec dimensioned zinc hilts, non-milspec steel, a bright plated blade finish to give away your position etc. etc. They and the other dress items stayed home.

    And I am remiss for not first looking for a few additional pictures of some of what the combat arm of the SS actually carried into battle. Which I am correcting now with a closeup I did a few years ago of the first photo. And a picture of them being trained with their newly acquired Vz 24 rifles and bayonets which have muzzle rings - which as can be seen are distinctive in their design.

    Best regards to both,

    Fred
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  8. #7

    Default Re: K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    Hi gents although I still have much to learn about bayonets and dress bayonets..those who are experienced as yourselves more so on the bayo subject than myself...I recede my position.
    For the fact of a black and white photos..IMO is still a hard call to make as to me it still looks like a dress bayo. Given the nature of the rifle of course..would make sense, that it is brushed steel. Now a new question arises,,that the new photos above ,,these guys look like Liebstandarte solders,,whom also wore dress bayonets,,and definitely not armbands into battle. I do realize that these guys were training for battle.
    What would put my suspicions to rest,,is to actually get within 6 feet of the bayonet while being worn by the SS mann,,and not getting shot or arrested for my hobby curiosity. Your photos Fred are excellent in close up,,with no pixelation.
    The 60s band "Moody Blues" summed it up the best when describing colors in darkness,,which also makes day time half tone photos relevent..the lyrics from "days of future past".........

    Cold hearted orb that rules the night, Removes the colours from our sight, Red is gray and yellow white, But we decide which is right. And which is an illusion?

    Which is it? " The Moody Blues are not bayo collectors..but there point is on the mark with color..( and dropping a bit of acid doesnt help it much )
    Without color,,I will leave the time period and type of rifle alone as would be the same for me with political dagger fittings. I will take you word for it............................but it sure looks like a dress bayo.. Good chat Regards to all Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #8
    ?

    Default Re: K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    Hello i believe we spoke about this bayonet some years ago, Fred is totally right, there is probably the barellring on the bayonet, same as when You multiplicied the lenght of handle, You will get a 30cm blade, so lenght has no dress bayonets.

  10. #9

    Default Re: K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    Larry, We are in agreement that the lighting, and old black and white photos many times don’t make it easy to tell what is there. But Andy makes a very good point about using the length of the bayonets in making a determination. And I would add that while it’s not easy to tell, the junction of the wood grip and the steel pommel where they come together is diagonal not straight up and down like a dress bayonet.

    Additionally, as a personal observation of the better condition dress bayonets that I might pick up to look at perhaps 15% (?) have blades that are loose. With a friend of mine who made them one of his specialties who routinely used shims to correct the loose blades, leading me to believe that the numbers are greater than what a casual examination might show. And on a few occasions we tried fitting many of his dress bayonets onto standard Mauser bayonet mounting studs (I also have the rifles) - but experienced a fairly high failure rate.

    With all that said, the photos I posted do show what looks to me like full muzzle rings (with the training photo you have to double click to enlarge). And one photo that I would like to post - but regrettably is not my intellectual property, showing not only an unquestionable full muzzle ring Vz 24 bayonet. But also the rifle with the (easily removable) standard Czech front sight protector. Best regards to both. Fred
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  11. #10

    Default Re: K98 Dress bayonet in combat?

    Hello,

    yes can only be a Seitengewehr 24 ( t)

    but sometimes you can realy see extra - bayontes in combat
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