K98 with scabbard question

**josephc** · 08-31-2014, 01:50 PM

I purchased this bayonet and would like to know if it is a military or civilian/non-military org type. I ask because the scabbard is unmarked black painted steel like I have seen on dress bayonets. The bayonet also has a thick leather piece at the hilt. There are markings on the bayonet; eagles look early. One side of hilt is numbered and other side has P R 8 stamped on hilt; not sure what that stands for. The bayonet, scabbard and frog came together. Seller noted that it might be a police bayonet? I purchased because i need a dress scabbard for another bayonet but if members believe this is original set and should stay together let me know, thanks. Joe

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 08-31-2014 01:50 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**Jim P** · 08-31-2014, 02:21 PM

This bayo is what collectors call the Spanish model 1943. I have never been able to fully wrap my mind around these bayo's, but I will tell you what I think I know and try not to screw it up too badly

Germany made some 84/98's for Spain under contract and Spain produced some themselves. Spanish made copy's tend to have a narrower blade than the German contracts. Somewhere along the line these bayo's were refurbished by Spain and you get a mix and match of parts from both and sometimes even dress ks98's thrown into the mix. I think yours is the latter, having a mix of both German and Spanish parts. I am not sure when this took place, but maybe someone has figured that out and will hopefully post some more info. The pr 8 is said to stand for parque de artilleria No 8.

Hope this helps and hope Fred or Andy can add to it or correct me if I am wrong.

Jim

**josephc** · 08-31-2014, 02:55 PM

Thanks Jim - so I could swap scabbards with my dress bayo in the other post and each would still be "correct".

**timothy** · 08-31-2014, 03:12 PM

I think Jim has said all I could say about these Spanish M43 I had one years ago they are unique. I don't think a s84/98 would fit in a dress bayonet scabbard would they? the blade on s84/98 is a little thicker wider than KS98 at least none of them I have ever tried fit. timothy

**Jim P** · 08-31-2014, 03:25 PM

by josephc

Thanks Jim - so I could swap scabbards with my dress bayo in the other post and each would still be "correct".

That's a tough question. While this scabbard may have started off as a dress version, the frog stud looks to have been replaced and the whole thing blued, probably by the Spanish as I understand it. It might be more correct for the ks 98, but it still wouldn't be 100% correct. Right now, in my opinion, it is more correct as it is, where it is. I would wait and see what Fred and Andy have to say, but if they agree, I would sell the other blank scabbard and buy the correct painted scabbard and leave this pair together.

Jim

**kriegsmodell** · 08-31-2014, 06:43 PM

by josephc

..... so I could swap scabbards with my dress bayo in the other post and each would still be "correct".

I would keep this set together. It is correct in its current configuration and is actually an interesting example with the combination of Spanish and German markings. The scabbard is absolutely correct as made for this bayonet having the characteristic front center throat screw (domed) and lack of mounting base for the frog lug. Also note the cross grinding to the scabbard in the area where the frog stud is mounted. The scabbard finial is also rather distinctive.

Although damaged, the frog is German. A numbered (RBN or RFN) example that dates from 1943 or later. The retention strap has also been removed from the body of the frog. My thoughts only ....

**Jim P** · 09-01-2014, 12:52 AM

by timothy

I think Jim has said all I could say about these Spanish M43 I had one years ago they are unique. I don't think a s84/98 would fit in a dress bayonet scabbard would they? the blade on s84/98 is a little thicker wider than KS98 at least none of them I have ever tried fit. timothy

Normally, I would say that is correct, but Spanish blades have a more slender profile and without seeing the throat of the scabbard, it is hard to say whether or not it has been modified as well.

Jim

**Frogprince** · 09-01-2014, 10:13 PM

The P.R.8 marking is not German Police, and from what I'm seeing it's a parts piece with the question being: ...... who? what? and when? The "P.R.8" is Spanish, and means something that I vaguely recall refers to some kind of rework or armory or Parque de Artilleria No. 8 (?) that I'm fairly sure I have put away somewhere for reference (not having time at the moment to try and look for it). With the German made bayonets that went to Spain in roughly the late 1930's sometimes having a single tang Waffenamt - but none in any other location. Wood grips, a bright blade/handle, no flash guard and a very nice well blued German type of scabbard which this is not, and sometimes also having an added "P.R.8." marking.

Whereas the Spanish M 1943's were made in two pieces with this type of (posted) scabbard, a flash guard, the hilt and blade then riveted like an HJ knife or dress bayonet. (Normally unmarked, some dishonest individuals have even been know to apply "SS" marks to said bayonets which is not going to be amusing to those who were unfortunate enough to have purchased one as a so-called "commercial" SS bayonet.) That said, I suspect that the pommel "118" could possibly be a spurious addition (or not?) with probably the best to find out by removing the grips. Which should not be a big deal IMO because the screws are already reversed from what they should be, and it looks like it's been refinished. With the one other possibility (as was mentioned) being that of a leftover German issue bayonet from the time the Germans were helping the Spanish that was then overhauled. With taking it apart IMO still the best option to see what can be seen. Best Regards, Fred

**timothy** · 09-02-2014, 04:55 AM

by Jim P

Normally, I would say that is correct, but Spanish blades have a more slender profile and without seeing the throat of the scabbard, it is hard to say whether or not it has been modified as well.

Jim

I see that now after looking on "Old SMitty's" site he has a Spanish M-43 it appears it is slimmer than standard German s84/98 So I would think it would fit. timothy

**AndyB** · 09-02-2014, 12:10 PM

Certainly interesting piece, as some proofs are typical german i assume this is in reality a german S84/98 delivered to Spain and reworked there in M43 manner with new scabbard typical for M43 configuration, only spain is on the piece the marking PR8, from what i see there must be a S /code under the laether buffer on blade. the mentioned frog is late war germany repaired with brass rivets?
From 118 proof i would assume it was made by S/172G, S/173G or S/177G.