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WOW! 3K for an SS Bayo, knot & frog

Article about: Saw this one pop up today on consignment with Tom for 3K....WOW! Wittmann Militaria #37591C SS Dress Bayonet with 'SD' Knot (SS 188/35 RZM)

  1. #21


    Quote by gerrit View Post
    Fred i think it may not be of any help what you just posted.
    I think 80% or more cant read/understand what the artical says unfortunate

    BTW i like what it says, but im fortunate to be able to read AND understand German



    Can you translate it & post in English please ?

    Thanks Mac 66.

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  3. #22


    Mac i can and i will, but you have to wait a week or 2, im packing for the holiday at the moment.
    We will be off tomorrow night, leaving me with 1 busy day at work left..
    CU in 2.5 week buddy!


  4. #23


    With my apologies, here is a very rough translation that I've posted line by line or paragraph by paragraph of what I believe it says in a non-literal translation from my very limited abilities as a non-native German speaker. So while my father spoke German, and my grandmother taught it in school (in the U.S) - I did not learn it a child. Instead it was much later and not very well having only a limited ability. So I'm looking forward to see what Ger posts as a translation.

    JANUARY 16, 1935
    Bekanntmachung gemäß Artikel 1 § 5 des Gesetzes gegen heimtückische Angriffe auf Staat und Partei und zum Schutz der Parteiuniformen vom 20. Dezember 1934 (Reichsgesetzbl. I S. 1269). Vom 16. Januar 1935.

    January 16, 1935, (as per Article 1 etc.) .......... another law is passed named the "Proclamation of Article 1, Section 5 of the Law Against Attacks on the State and Party and for the Protection of Party Uniforms from December 20, 1934 (Bulletin IS. 1269). From January 16, 1935.


    I. Uniformteile
    1. Bekleidungsgegenstände für die Politische Organisation der NSDAP, für SA und SA-Marine, für die SS, für das Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahr-Korps, für die Hitler-Jugend mit dem Deutschen Jungvolk, dem Bund Deutscher Mädel und den Jungmädeln sowie für die Deutsche Arbeitsfront:

    1. Uniforms
    1. Clothing articles for the political organization of the NSDAP, for SA and SA Marine, for the SS, for the NSKK, for the HJ and the DJ, the BDM and the Jungmädel, as well as for the DAF:


    2. Sonstige Uniformteile:
    a) Leibriemen mit einer Mindestbreite von 45 Millimetern, Schulterriemen, Sturzhelme für das Nationalsozialistische Kraftfahr-Korps, Koppelschlösser, Zweidornschnallen, Dienstdolche der SA und SS, Fahrtenmesser für die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk, ............................

    2. Other uniform accessories:
    a.) Double prong belts (specification), Shoulder belt, Crash helmets for the NSKK, Belt Buckles, Two-prong buckles, Service dagger of the SA and SS, Travel/Hiking knife for the Hitler Youth (HJ) and the German Young People (DJ), .................

    b) folgende Ausrüstungsgegenstände, sofern sie für die NSDAP oder ihre Gliederungen bestimmt sind: Tornister, Zeltbahnen, Brotbeutel, Feldflaschen, Kochgeschirre, Trinkbecher, Spaten, Ersatzteile zu den vorgenannten Gegenständen.

    b) Tornisters (packs), Tents (components), Bread bags, Canteens, Mess kits, Drinking cups, Shovels. Spare parts for the aforementioned items.

    Sämtliche unter I aufgeführten Uniformteile müssen sichtbar das Schutzzeichen des Reichszeugmeisterei der NSDAP tragen. Sofern das Schutzzeichen nicht aufgestempelt oder eingeprägt wird, ist ein Anhängezettel mit dem Schutzzeichen anzubringen.
    Die Erlaubnis zur Verwendung des Schutzzeichens der Reichszeugmeisterei der NSDAP wird den Herstellern von dem Reichsschatzmeister der NSDAP mit der Erlaubnis nach Artikel 1 § 5 Abs. 1 Satz 1 des Gesetzes erteilt.
    Die Anhängezettel mit dem Schutzzeichen sind von der Reichszeugmeisterei der NSDAP in München zu beziehen.

    All uniform parts specified must visibly carry the Protection mark of the Reichszeugmeisterei of the NSDAP. If the Protection character is not marked or is not stamped, an identification tag with the mark is to be attached. Permission for the use of the mark of the Reichszeugmeisterei of the NSDAP is given to manufacturers by the Treasury Department of the NSDAP according to the article 1 § 5. The identification tags with the Protection (RZM) mark are to be referred of the Reichszeugmeisterei of the NSDAP in Munich.

    Berlin, den 16. Januar 1935.

    Der Reichsschatzmeister der NSDAP
    und Generalbevollmächtigte des Führers
    in allen vermögensrechtlichen Angelegenheiten
    der NSDAP
    Der Reichswirtschaftsminister
    Mit der Führung der Geschäfte beauftragt:
    Hjalmar Schacht
    Präsident des Reichsbankdirektoriums

    The date and signers (with their rank-status) of the document, which I imagine should be somewhat self explanatory.

    Best Regards, Fred

  5. #24



    IMO SS Markings an dress-bayontes, also the "Kulturzeichen" of Professor DIEBITSCH are not original.

    The explanation is very simple. The RZM rules only the special clothing and equipment of all organisations of the NSDAP Party, including the SS.
    Special blade weapons are only the Hitler Youth knife and the service Daggers of SS and SA.
    All this clothing, insignias , equipment and their designs stands under the special protection of the german law.

    It is no mystery that normal dress bayontes are not a special armory of the NSDAP Party or have a special design. This equipment has no special protection and every firm was allowed the made and to merchandise dress bayonets to every soldier who want one... So it makes realy no sense to put a RZM sign on the blade.

    But the prominent fakt you can find in the "Handbuch der Reichszeugmeisterei" (compendium of the RZM). There are listed all the produkts which only can produced with the license of the RZM. Also every Produkt has a list of makers with their license Number.

    So... dress bayontes are totaly missing in this regulation.... understandably.
    Also no makers exist for this product.

    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #25


    Here the additinal rulings from 1938
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  7. #26


    With My Sincere Thanks for posting some of the source documentation . I'm very much OK with the "Kulturzeichen" as something to call the intertwined SS markings, which is one of the things that Joe Wotka contributed to TW's SS book. But not so much I'm afraid with the reference to Prof. Karl Diebitsch.

    With his name IMO a postwar conclusion by collectors and/or writers that to date appears to have no period facts to support it. The topic being discussed at length on WAF a while back (12 pages), a look at just post # 23 from Joe Wotka who made the discovery of an entry in a period Police magazine that gave us the term "Kulturzeichen". As seen on Allach ceramics, some jewelry items, M1936 daggers, SS Degens except for those from Dachau, and about 1/2 of German Police Degens. With post # 111 from Robin Lumsden, from a FM-Zeitschrift - that taken together is the really short version which I think sums up much of what can be proved from actual TR period sources. That said, I'm always open to new period information, and perfectly OK with having to update my files and thinking. Best Regards, Fred

    SS Sword - Militaria Forums

  8. #27


    I like this discussion very much. Unlike some other Forums where there is back stabbing and member tossing, here I can really learn something about daggers.

  9. #28


    Quote by bluemax View Post
    I like this discussion very much. Unlike some other Forums where there is back stabbing and member tossing, here I can really learn something about daggers.
    We have some fun here ..and yet are serious when we discuss about these pieces of history. There is no back stabbing here..but a good punch in the arm,..only when needed to prove the validity of an argument concerning and edged type. Bumps and Bruises more so here..but not in a negative way. Knowledge comes from the bumps and bruises. The forum is very fortunate to have such determined minds and patience as is in this thread and many others through out the Edged weapon forum in this topic area. Over all on the WRF will find the same in the seasoned collectors who reside here.

    There is a very low tolerance for those who want to come on this Website with negative intent..who are quickly found and swept out. The WRF prides itself on being immersed in the hobby and History. No one goes to college and screws around..if they want to become career minded.

    Entering the sit down with Professors ..and real ones that some of them are here in real life.

    Enjoy your stay BlueMax ..there is much to study and learn. Best Regards Larry
    Last edited by Larry C; 08-29-2015 at 01:44 AM.
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #29


    Hi. Just a quick question on the validity of these marking on bayonet blades. I have read elsewhere that ss and possibly rzm period marked bayonet frogs did exist. If this is case then why not on the bayonets if they appear on the bayonet accessories?

  11. #30


    Quote by popcorn View Post
    Hi. Just a quick question on the validity of these marking on bayonet blades. I have read elsewhere that ss and possibly rzm period marked bayonet frogs did exist. If this is case then why not on the bayonets if they appear on the bayonet accessories?
    Briefly, Discussed at great length various times and places multiple authors have declined to put the RZM dress bayonets in their books for good reasons, and I've seen and examined the companion RZM marked SS saber and Degen blades that were made specifically for collectors "back in the day". However, there are legitimate SS marked frogs. But I think that you will have to take the RZM in that context out of the equation. Which is not to say that RZM marked frogs don't exist ................ having seen one example where some 'genius' put a fake RZM marking on an already valuable scarce Kriegsmarine frog - making it worthless. Best Regards, Fred

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