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94 year old former Auschwitz guard goes on trial in Germany

Article about: Posted: Thursday, February 11, 2016 1:30 am Associated Press | DETMOLD, Germany (AP) — A 94-year-old former Auschwitz guard is going on trial on 170,000 counts of accessory to murder in west

  1. #31


    Quote by seventyeighth View Post
    Ridiculous and off topic.
    But true.

    IMO all Criminals have to be held responsible to set an example to others.

  2. #32


    I wholeheartedly agree that this man and others should be held accountable and brought to trial for the crimes against humanity that were committed
    My point is that Germany and indeed Western culture and democracy have more important issues to deal with at the moment and those should be concentrated on fully

  3. #33


    Quote by AZPhil View Post
    I agree if guilty the price should be paid , No matter at what time in your life you are found. But death by association for the name of the KZ camp that they served at. If the hammer should fall, There are so many more individual that should be called to their accountability. So many atrocities and torture and murders committed under that reign , That not the few but the many who where able to go on with their lives should be called to justify their deeds and punished for them. So many names ,so many places, so many deaths. But those are swept under the carpet and a major focus put on these camps and those that served there. Some time it is a political move or who was our enemy/allies at the time. Like mentioned before the Police force in Germany and its occupied countries who were "Just Following Orders" seem to escape the Hang mans noose. Their are so many but Heinz Pannwits the head of Sonderkommando Pannwitz in Paris and his torture and murdering deeds done while combating the 'Rote Kapelle"comes to mind. Was the fighting of the Red regime deem acceptable at the wars end and these Gent's allowed to serve the new ruling party for there intel about the Communist and live their lives out peacefully with no reprisal? So many were!

    I see now why lady Justice has a blind fold on!
    Attachment 934532

    Semper Fi
    I have to totally agree. As others have said here, people should be held accountable no matter how long ago but is the focus on KZ Guards etc because there is a better chance to obtain documented evidence and hence a prosecution? As opposed to trying to prosecute 'dear old grandfather in his comfy chair' who was part of a Heer Infantry unit who helped wipe out a village in the Balkans or forced Russian civilians to cross a minefield etc where the chance of witnesses or the man being proven to of been present is much less?

  4. #34


    Quote by sandgroper View Post
    Sorry for being simplistic gents but if this old bastard was responsible for even one death then sort him out I reckon, I don't care how old he is. People suffered terribly in these places, if he was so innocent then look for signs of him requesting a transfer etc...Just my opinion fellas.
    Well said and as far as i know the personnel were mostly members of SS Totenkopfverbände, some personnel were Waffen SS who had been transferred to the camp system due to injuries which had made them unfit for the front line. I'm sure there were camp personnel who didn't like the job but i'm sure they could have asked for a transfer to a combat unit, the "i was only following orders" bullsh*t does not wash with me and everybody who staffed the camps knew exactly what was going on. Your post may be simplistic but bloody true!....
    It's a wasted trip baby. Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

    I'm Spartacus, not really i'm Paul!...

  5. #35


    Well, this is almost the eternal debate and I for one wholeheartedly agree that when guilt is proven the guilty should atone for their sins.

    However, the passage of time has made meaningful investigation and production of viable evidence almost impossible.

    I agree with just about every comment above even those that seem at odds with others.

    If all those "complicit" as per the standard apparently being applied (the definition of having worked in a camp seems to produce the criterion of simply being aware) which must include at least every citizen of the TR old enough at the time to be "aware" as elligible for indictment then there are not enough judiciary on the planet to deal with the matter.
    I have studied the subject and lived in Germany long enough (14yrs) to believe that every person in that society beyond juvenile years "knew" what was happening but by the time they came to the understanding of that knowledge it was far too late to risk being denounced by friends colleagues and even family members. What in any case could people do? It's easy for us now to say with hindsight how brave we would be but would we? I think this is what has resulted in the "national guilt" that is so much spoken of.There must be a scapegoat right?

    That aside, we have an issue here where, as I understand it, this man is accused of being directly involved in the awful crimes perpetrated by this apalling regime.

    So, we have an allegation of guilty action. It follows therefore that there is a burden of proof.
    This in western society (yes all of western society) falls upon the prosecution ie the assumption is one of innocence until guilt is proven. It is a fundamental tenet of criminal (not civil) law in our time that the accused does not have to prove he did not do that of which he is accused rather the state (acting on behalf of the people) must prove that he did. This requires evidence which must be valid and satisfy the rules of evidence (I won't bore with those but they are similar in all western judicial systems). This is the responsibility of the judicary not the public at large. With this in mind, is it possible so long after the events to produce evidence that has not been affected by failing memory, inaccurate reporting or plain distorted third (or more) hand opinion? Anecdotal evidence is likely the worst affected in this way although physical evidence will be vastly affected by interpretation. The best hope must be documentary evidence. If that exists and supports the alegation to the required standard then all well and good but if not the case is seriously weakened.

    Clearly the "following orders" defence is a weak if somewhat contentious one but that is only applicable to someone who has already agreed his physical involvement.

    I served many years as a soldier and for reasons I won't bore with stood at the risk of my own safety against those who would do wrong and harm my country. I would willingly wreak havoc upon those who threaten or perpetrate such harm. I now serve the country in the police service and regularly come face to face with disgusting individuals that I am convinced comitted serious crime yet have to accept that I can't actually "prove" it. As frustrating as this is I would rather tolerate these escapes from justice than see a single innocent convicted of something he did not do.

    Also to be considered is public interest, whether the greater good of the society concerned is to be benefitted by the prosecution of a particular allegation. In most countries I think the answer in this case would be no. However, given, the particular circumstances in Germany the answer may be yes, that is for the Germans and nobody else to say. Don't forget the question of whether there exists a realistic prospect of successful prosecution.

    As I said earlier, I believe that if the guilty can be identified and their crimes proven then in theory they should be brought to justice regardless of the passage of time and in this case the level of offence is not an issue.

    In the end it is for the German state (with consideration to the victims) to decide whether the issue is valid, the German judiciary to action any prosecution and the German people to reconcile the matter as a whole.

    Germany is a full and valuable member of the Western Alliance. She is our friend and partner yet has difficult issues with which to deal in this regard. Most european nations have some experience of these issues but none have the right, now that Germany has full self determination, to dictate how the german issues are addressed.

    Sorry to be so longwinded but it does cause me sadness to see this old sore constantly picked at rather than allowed to heal


    Last edited by Watchdog; 02-13-2016 at 05:45 PM. Reason: typo

  6. #36
    CBH is offline


    I believe this man shares as much guilt as any member of the nazi party

  7. #37


    Quote by CBH View Post
    I believe this man shares as much guilt as any member of the nazi party
    At it's peak, there were around 8 million members of the Nazi party, or almost 10% of the total population of "Greater Germany". Taking your statement as it's written, that leaves a considerable amount of people alive today who are just as culpable as this fellow currently being tried for his part in a war crime. You can't try them all can you?

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  8. #38


    but why not after so many years?? he maybe not even live to hear the punishment.He is to old.

  9. #39


    Quote by herrzark View Post
    but why not after so many years?? he maybe not even live to hear the punishment.He is to old.
    Please read the entire thread, it appears from your question that you have not done so.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  10. #40


    In some cases, there does not seem to be a time limit on how much time can pass before someone is made to pay for a crime. Just a couple days ago in the news was a 80+ year old priest who was finally arrested for the murder of a young gal in McAllen Texas in 1960, finally, 56 years later he will possibly stand trial for this.

    This will bring some closure to the family members.

    In this case... it will not. But... it does seem a bit irrelevant to prosecute and jail someone? Let me expound on this...

    These "guards" and all of their memories are about as precious now as any real camp survirors, maybe even more.

    For every holocaust denier out there... A man like this should tell his story.

    Let him, MAKE HIM, tell his story. THAT, should be his punishment, and his expiation.

    And publish it, in the paper. Give it plenty of exposure. That is the only thing that we, the world as a whole, would have to gain from this. I would love to interview the man myself! These are stories that cannot be allowed to die, anymore than someone who was in the camps and lived. Even more so in this case, because the victims are all too easily discredited by mental midgets who can't even take pride the the Third Reich's greatest accomplishment...

    Too little too late it may be, but it's not too late to hear the truth.

    It's never too late.

    I hope someone reads this that can make something like this a reality.

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