Kriegsmarine pommels by makers - For reference

[Tomaz]

Alcoso

Holler

Eickhorn

WKC

Puma


Lately I have been trying to get a point across about WKC having something to do with the design and manufacture of some navy pommels used by some of the companies who produced navy daggers. I've also been in friendly dispute about Puma manufacturing their own navy parts. To show that I'm not completely bonkers, I though I would try and kill two birds with one stone and show you why I have come to the conclusions I have about both of these subjects.
Above are five pictures of navy pommels, the first four we know for sure are made by Alcoso, Holler, Eickhorn and WKC. We can see that they each have their very own distinctive designs and each specific feature is different on each one. The fifth one we know is a correct pommel for Puma (Olegs).

But who made the Puma pommel?
We can see the Puma pommel looks nothing like the Alcoso, Holler or Eickhorn so we know they had nothing to do with it.
Now compare it to the WKC. One of the most obvious linking features is the wreath, the leaf design and placement is as you can see exactly the same as WKC. Why would Puma do that if there was no connection to WKCuld ? I woexpect an independent company to have their own unique design.
Also on the front the other obvious thing is tmodhe lines going down the eagles wings distinguishing the sections, they are the same angle and placement on the Puma and WKC, the other three, Alcoso, Holler and Eicified khorn are completely different.
The Puma pommel has a head and swastika and is narrower on the right hand side. Would you design an asymmetrical eagle if it was you unique design, it adds nothing to its look. I believe these alterations are done to distinguish it from WKC and other companies who used these pommels, WKC would not want them looking exactly like their standard pommels.

On the reverse of the Puma the feathering is also the same design as the WKC, (and others, Horster etc), Alcoso, Holler and Eickhorn are again distinctively different.
If you have T.W's navy book you can see this on p289 on the WKC, Eickhorn, Horster and Puma.
If Puma manufactured this pommel why would they design so many of their features the same as WKC? Would that have even been legal if there was no collaboration between these companies.
It is though WKC made the generic A army cross guard with the same features to their 4th guard but with a different head. With same features to WKC and also with a different head, I think it is highly likely WKC made the Puma navy pommel as well as other companies.
As you can see I have explained my findings and have even backed this up with pictures this time. I look forward to hear your opinions on what I have said above. All opinions most welcome.

Best Tomaz.

[Larry C]

Looks like the beginnings of a great thread

[gerrit]

Hi Tomaz,

i like the idea to show in depth the pommels of the different makers, so the start is well, but without the rest of the dagger with its makerslogo, scabbard etc it doesnt give any evidence with parts belong to which maker, only your written word, which can be miss typed, or contain errors.
IMO to make this a worthy sticky you should post the entire dagger as well.

Regards
Ger

[Tomaz]

The thread is about the pommels so no need to post the entire dagger, I have shown the pommels in order I listed them in my write up, Alcoso, Holler, Eickhorn, WKC and Puma. They are the correct pommels for these companies, I'm sure anyone in the know like Danny or Oleg would correct me if they were not.
Regards Tomaz.

[gerrit]

Tomaz we differ in opinion in this one:
IMO the correct way to start a post like this is to start from base and show the details of each maker: first you proof your words with pictures, (thats normally done on a reference site like this one) after that you start with your theory.

But lets leave that for what it is.
Now about your theory:
You point out that the design by Puma is not done well and should be a spin off of another design, in this case you point out to WKC.
Desing has to do with taste, so your opinion is as good or bad as any other.
I think Alcoso and Puma have the best designs, but that my opinion.

The Puma is a completely different design and doesnt look like any of the rest, not only its distinctive head, but also the wreath, the swastika are different.
Why think they are WKC?

You have to come up with better arguments then yor opinion about the asymetric design.
Second thing is: if the design was a WKC spinoff why didnt Puma also use the WKC scabbards?
Puma scabbards are not WKC
So i cant see what you try to point out.

Regards
Ger

[Tomaz]

You need to read my write up again Gerrit, its nothing to do with who has the best design, its about linking the Puma company pommel to the WKC company. I've also explained why it has a different head and swastika.
Take another look at the wreath, before I posted this thread I asked 3 people to look and see what they saw the same on the WKC and Puma pommels and each one (who are not into daggers) said the wreath is the same design. You are correct that the Puma scabbards are not WKCs.

I do not know yet who manufactured them but they do have lots of the same features to other companies who did not make their own parts, such as the starting point of the lightening bolt pattern, thick girth rings, same leaf design band though I do need to see more examples of these, this leads me to think that the scabbards are generic which would tie in with using another companies pommel.

Apart from Puma the companies listed above were well established navy manufacturers and not counting the really rare ones who may only have produced one or two examples of navy daggers this left only a handful (5) other companies who produced navy daggers and not many were produced by these companies compared to the well established ones, it makes sense that they would probably use generic parts.
Tomaz.

[Tomaz]

The first 4 are shown because these are the only ones we know for sure were manufactured by the companies who are named above. The Puma is shown because the main topic of the thread was to link a company like Puma who is not a known manufacturer of navy parts to a company who is, in this case WKC.
That is why I included picture proof in the title, the fact that part of the design is exactly the same proves to me at least that there had to be some collaboration between these two companies.

I don't have all the navy pommels available in my collection so if anyone wants to show a Horster, Weyersberg, Clemen & Jung or Luneschloss pommel that would help the thread as these along with Puma were also very small producers and show the same similar design features to link these pommels to being a generic type.
Best Tomaz.

[heers68]

Tomaz, I think your post is very clear and well written. I must agree that the wings and wreath are ringers between the Puma and WKC.. I have a Puma Navy at home and will pull it out for comparison tonight! Thanks! Kevin.

[stingray]

Hey guys
Here are three I own.
They looks to me like close to Alcoso or Eickhorn or... ?

[Tomaz]

Thanks Kevin & Stingray for your replies,.......
Stingray.... the pommels you show are definitely not Alcoso or Eickhorn, if you look on the Alcoso you will see the large claws and three diagonal sections at the bottom of the wreath which are different features that are not on the pommels you show, if you look at the Eickhorn you will see the deep set swastika and both these pommels have an overall different shape to ones you show, most notably the higher and more pointed areas at the top of the wings.

The 3 you show do appear to all be the same, again check out the wreath pattern and placement of the leaves, the large banana bunch feet, lines showing the sections of the wings and overall shape. Are these pommels on different makes of daggers, I will need to do some home work to be sure of the makers but they are definitely none of the first 4 that I show, if not WKC (possibly the last one shown) which looking at the head I don't think they are they should either be Horster, clemen & Jung, Weyersberg or Luneschloss.

These pommels being the same in design (apart from the head & swastika) again tells me that they were a generic type most likely made by WKC for Puma, Horster, Weyersberg, Clemen & Jung and Luneschloss.

Regards Tomaz.

PS, I'm away till Tuesday so wont be able to reply till then.