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KM Two Piece Pebbled Field.

Article about: To quote Peter Nash in his book, "After production of the one piece die struck aluminium buckles ceased in 1939, the Kriegsmarine utilised a gilt two piece buckle of the same design as

  1. #41

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    Thanks Lenny, I never base my thoughts on current books,
    as what I said before. Neither do I value Nash, nor Angolia.
    What I really think about these books, I will not tell. Nash
    was given to me, I never would have paid money for it. Not
    even a dime.

    The above mentioned authors hardly ever have seen period
    documentation, or have visited manufacturers. And I repeat
    what is said in my earlier post:
    I am convinced that the one or the other shown at the start
    of this thread might be quite doubtful. My guts say the gilding
    is done wrong!
    Or they did not pay enough attention to the
    correct buckle material.


    It looks as the gilding was an experiment and failed! I have
    seen results like this in the seventies...…….And I know what
    I am talking about!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 08-01-2018 at 08:27 AM.

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  3. #42

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    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Thanks Lenny, I never base my thoughts on current books,
    as what I said before. Neither do I value Nash, nor Angolia.
    What I really think about these books, I will not tell. Nash
    was given to me, I never would have paid money for it. Not
    even a dime.

    The above mentioned authors hardly ever have seen period
    documentation, or have visited manufacturers. And I repeat
    what is said in my earlier post:
    I am convinced that the one or the other shown at the start
    of this thread might be quite doubtful. My guts say the gilding
    is done wrong!
    Or they did not pay enough attention to the
    correct buckle material.


    It looks as the gilding was an experiment and failed! I have
    seen results like this in the seventies...…….And I know what
    I am talking about!
    Thanks for your research... it really is appreciated. However, can you clarify WHICH buckle you mean? I posted the one I got from a veterans family and about three others...

    The one in the very first post, the OLC is the one I got from the family. There are others shared from dealer websites...

  4. #43

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    I said start of the thread, the one gotten from a veterans family,
    but also the others coming (for example the one gilded
    in front with aluminum reverse) are not correct according gilding
    procedures (see also what I already said in post 41, especially
    the last line).

    The material from the one from post 1 is not appropriate for the
    "eloxalverfahren". It is a poor attempt to get it a gilded look!
    When I understood right from Overhoff, they were not able to
    do gilding and let others concerns do the job! Maybe this concern
    was not known with the correct procedures and tried to gild it.
    And so you see the result. When this was done, I do not know!

    I am sure you won't agree, but it just are facts!! I advise you
    to read well what I wrote. Maybe I was the only person that
    ever tried to know if gilding was done before or after the war,
    helped with this by Overhoff and another concern at Lüdenscheid.
    When it was the right material, you could not see the difference.

  5. #44

    Default

    Is it optical illusion, or not? Or is it the lighting of the photo?
    This photo was used in volume 1 from the headgear-series (page 215, credit: Patzwall).
    It seems that at left a gilded buckle is being worn and at right the feldgrau version.

    KM Two Piece Pebbled Field.

    From an other publication apparently:

    KM Two Piece Pebbled Field.

  6. #45

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    I said start of the thread, the one gotten from a veterans family,
    but also the others coming (for example the one gilded
    in front with aluminum reverse) are not correct according gilding
    procedures (see also what I already said in post 41, especially
    the last line).

    The material from the one from post 1 is not appropriate for the
    "eloxalverfahren". It is a poor attempt to get it a gilded look!
    When I understood right from Overhoff, they were not able to
    do gilding and let others concerns do the job! Maybe this concern
    was not known with the correct procedures and tried to gild it.
    And so you see the result. When this was done, I do not know!

    I am sure you won't agree, but it just are facts!! I advise you
    to read well what I wrote. Maybe I was the only person that
    ever tried to know if gilding was done before or after the war,
    helped with this by Overhoff and another concern at Lüdenscheid.
    When it was the right material, you could not see the difference.
    Agreed the gilding doesn't look as if it's done properly, however this could tie in with what you say that Overhoff sub contracted fire gilding to a subcontractor. As you know, gilding is a horrible process and not everyone can do it. In fact I'm sure fire gilding was banned after the war?

    However, Nash does say in his book that the gilding was done poorly, which is what you are saying.

    For me, this does point to a subcontractor poorly guilding these buckles, however the question as you say is WHEN it was done. From earlier posts I seem to remember you mentioned this was done post war. Do you now believe that these buckles were subcontractor gilded war time based on this period documentation?

    For me, the documentation proves there was a request to do these wartime, and don't have an issue with the hypothesis that Overhoff sub contracted these war time.

    It's an interesting topic indeed, and great to get a bit of discussion going about it...

  7. #46

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    Is it optical illusion, or not? Or is it the lighting of the photo?
    This photo was used in volume 1 from the headgear-series (page 215, credit: Patzwall).
    It seems that at left a gilded buckle is being worn and at right the feldgrau version.

    KM Two Piece Pebbled Field.

    From an other publication apparently:

    KM Two Piece Pebbled Field.
    Looking at this as a Professional Photographer for over 30 years, it's quite interesting.

    Twin light setup, main light front right, not a soft light, wrongly positioned pointing to left sitter's face, slight fall off on right sitter.

    Twin catchlights in eye...

    Left light used as background light but is spilling onto left sitter....

    Looking at illumination levels on the tunics, and buttons, my gut feeling is the left hand sitter is wearing lighter buttons and buckle then the right hand sitter.

    Of course you can't tell the colour of the buckle/buttons solely from the photographic technique, but as a studio lighting photographer, I'd say the left hand sitter does wear a lighter buckle/buttons and it's not a trick of lighting or optical illusion.

  8. #47

    Default

    The procedure, known as "Eloxalverfahren" was done before and during the war,
    but also after the war and only works with aluminum and/or Leichtmetall (which
    is not the same).

    The Eloxalverfahren is is not the same as the galvanic procedure. There is technically
    a difference, as far as I know and remember from Overhoff statements. If the aluminum
    or light-weight-metal is from an inferior quality or the wrong materials are being used,
    the procedure does not work!

    Feuervergoldung is merely done with silver, copper, messing and bronze. I thought
    this is still done. The product gives the color.

    Can you tell me from what material the buckle from post 1 is made? Just curious!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 08-02-2018 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #48

    Default

    Quote by Wilhelm Saris View Post
    The procedure, known as "Eloxalverfahren" was done before and during the war,
    but also after the war and only works with aluminum and/or Leichtmetall (which
    is not the same).

    The Eloxalverfahren is is not the same as the galvanic procedure. There is technically
    a difference, as far as I know and remember from Overhoff statements. If the aluminum
    or light-weight-metal is from an inferior quality or the wrong materials are being used,
    the procedure does not work!

    Feuervergoldung is merely done with silver, copper, messing and bronze. I thought
    this is still done. The product gives the color.

    Can you tell me from what material the buckle from post 1 is made? Just curious!
    Not sure, presuming it's aluminium, same as other two piece parade buckles I have.

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