Opinions on this event

[BrodieBartfast]

Day in day out, it never ceases to amaze me how well George Orwell's 'Nineteen Eighty-Four' has predicted the future. We're going farther and farther down the rabbit hole of censorship.

Speaks volumes that they don't care about Communist/Soviet relics. I'd consider both Fascists and Communists as equally morally deplorable, as anyone with any knowledge of history should. Perhaps that's why the establishment is becoming more and more censorious? Hard to push for a Marxist Utopia when all the previous attempts are there to see in the history books.

B.B.

[Jb4046]

Even more knee-jerk reaction:

Facebook urged to block Nazi relic sales - Facebook urged to block Nazi relic sales - BBC News

Looks like Brodie's vision of the future is happening all too soon.
Nick

Oh Jesus . I better buy the NSDAP visor i spotted before it gets taking down

[Watchdog]

I wonder if attempts will be made to impose restrictions on the sale, possession and display of artifacts relating to the Roman Legions (who were not always the nicest of invaders) and will there be calls for apologies from the Italians for the the excesss of Roman soldiers or the Scandanavian countries for the rape and pillage carried out by the Vikings or the French for the Norman invasion of Britain or the Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Mongol Hoards, the Moghuls etc etc? The PC idiots who have never even heard an angry word in their direction want to build a utopia with flowers and fluffy bunnies so they can pretend nobody ever did anything remotely "naughty". I love a good debate but can't actually bring myself to even pass the time of day with such blinkered hypocrites. Hell is indeed the impossibility or reason and to deny the present days youth the right to access the past in the vibrant and tangible way that re-enactment offers is about as unreasonable as it gets. The subtle difference to observe is between glorification and illustration.

Mark

[HPL2008]

Actually, I don't think it's about covering up the past and denying or ignoring the existence of historical atrocities at all.

In fact, the Third Reich is omnipresent in the media and my subjective impression is that this, if anything, has even increased over the past decade or two. No matter when I zap through our TV channels, there is guaranteed to be some Nazi-/WW2 related documentary or movie shown on at least one channel (and usually something about American aircraft carriers, an episode of Bob Ross' The Joy of Painting and a number of cooking shows on the other ones, but that's another story).

What's different here - and this baffles me no end - is the general public's assumption that anybody who takes too much of an interest in the subject and goes beyond watching those endless (and often poor) documentaries by going into deeper research, collecting or, heaven forbid, reenacting simply has to be at least a Nazi sympathizer. "Interest" is automatically equated with "identification" and that's the unique and silly aspect here.

After all, if you collect Soviet material from the thirties and forties, you're usually not suspected of being a Stalinist who is into purges, Gulags and forced collectivization, so why is this different?

[thecyclist64]

They had a similar ban on my local 1940's event a few years ago after a couple of guys turned up in a open top period car wearing full Nazi uniform. They looked quite good, like they were straight out of a film set. As far as I know, nobody local took offence, but then the media got hold of it and published a picture of them smiling from the car. The following year, the organisers banned SS or swastikas, but not German uniforms. So now we have loads of dads Army types in uniform with the odd guy wearing something German stood next to a kuebel wagen looking out of place in what has become a very one sided looking 1940's event.

[CBH]

Never underestimate the stupidity of the average citizen, ignorance of the past is only a symptom.
Celebrity Pop-culture and sports are force feed to you everyday, the opiate of the masses, used to occupy the mind.
The illusion of Personal freedom is the one true victory of Western propaganda, we can't see it for what it is, as we wallow in it.

[HoundsTooth]

The thing that gets me about the Facebook ban is that 99.99% are serious collectors like the good folk on this forum. Your average neo-nazi isn't going to spend £2.5k on a PAB25 when he can spend his money on a repro flag and a pair of romper stomper boots and have plenty of change for beer.
Fortunately those types don't frequent our forum and I'm very glad of that.
Let's hope these over the top reactions are just a flash in the pan.
Nick

[CBH]

The Alt-Right *ssholes use only freshly made Chinese nazi regalia , you can still see the creases in the flag pictured during their now infamous march.
They would know a real item from a fake , even if they were beaten about the head with it.
My view is collector are a wonderful group of people, while nazis are moronic, imbeciles, who have little grasp of anything, besides hating people.

[Watchdog]

Actually, I don't think it's about covering up the past and denying or ignoring the existence of historical atrocities at all.

In fact, the Third Reich is omnipresent in the media and my subjective impression is that this, if anything, has even increased over the past decade or two. No matter when I zap through our TV channels, there is guaranteed to be some Nazi-/WW2 related documentary or movie shown on at least one channel (and usually something about American aircraft carriers, an episode of Bob Ross' The Joy of Painting and a number of cooking shows on the other ones, but that's another story).

What's different here - and this baffles me no end - is the general public's assumption that anybody who takes too much of an interest in the subject and goes beyond watching those endless (and often poor) documentaries by going into deeper research, collecting or, heaven forbid, reenacting simply has to be at least a Nazi sympathizer. "Interest" is automatically equated with "identification" and that's the unique and silly aspect here.

After all, if you collect Soviet material from the thirties and forties, you're usually not suspected of being a Stalinist who is into purges, Gulags and forced collectivization, so why is this different?

I think you are quite correct Andreas. There is no attempt to cover up or deny the less savoury aspects of this particular point in history. That, according to human nature would provoke greater interest and the old favourite "conspiracy theory".
Rather, I think as you suggest the idea is positively encouraged that anyone actually interested in the "nuts and bolts" as it were, as opposed to scholarly researched statistics and dry as a bone historical accounts set at strategic level, is a dangerous lunatic with latent psychosis who must be discouraged for his own good and that of the delicate youth.

As I said, I find it disconcerting that a Roman gladius for example is a valuable (therefore respectable) and relevant historical artifact yet an M35 steel helmet (of any hue) is a disgusting reminder of a vile episode in which only a right-wing thug would be interested.

There is a great deal in modern society that, because of the actions of a few (very few on a pro rata basis) intolerant idiots the rest of us get forcefed with from a PC stand point. I sometimes feel that common sense and decent opinion have "left the building" or are at least confined to their seats at the back of the room.


The best way to teach anyone anything other than pure theory is to provide physical as well as cerebral input. Ask a youth to read from a book and he may retain all the words but none of the meaning. Let him see and feel the material of the uniform and the weight of the equipment he will begin to gain so much understanding of what a soldier (in this case) endured but he must be shown what the other side endured too or his understanding will be flawed. The same applies to the insignia and sybolism inherrent therein which in "respectable" areas of study is referred to as heraldry.

I do feel strongly about this (I dearly want my grandchildren to have some idea of what I faced) and believe the point must be made otherwise the stories of Viking helmets with horns and Red indian tomahawks killing ten men in one throw will continue to grow and I won't be responsible for that.

I hope this makes sense.

Regards

Mark

PS Nobody objects to historical re-enactments of the horrors of the workhouse and 18th century orphanages or the Bastille and Newgate Prison nor Roman and Egyptian slavery do they?

[BrodieBartfast]

I've noticed the BBC article specifically refers to the selling of Third Reich artefacts as 'hate content'. An oversimplified and unfair term if ever there was one. It comes back to what Andreas very rightly noted about the confusion over interest and identification, and how the screeching PC Brigade seem unable to differentiate between those two things.

The ideology these artefacts represent is indeed hateful, but this term completely defies and ignores context. Is the Reichs Chancellery eagle displayed in the IWM in London 'hate content?' Is anything Third Reich-related displayed in a museum context to be considered 'hate content', or are we to lump all museums and collectors in with the likes of neo-Nazis?

I honestly feel, though, that if groups like Hope Not Hate understood why we collect and preserve these things, that they would be somewhat understanding. There is no better tool for the combating of present-day extremists than the physical evidence of the crimes of their forebears. Ban them, and they only drive the market underground, straight into the hands of the people they were trying to take it away from.

Until the bleating reactionaries start to show some forethought in their words and actions, they will only do more harm than good.

If ever there comes a day when the selling of these things is banned completely, I'll hold onto what I've got tooth and nail. The preservation of history and the lessons it holds will always come before someone's hurt feelings.

B.B.