Luftwaffe 1st model, Alcoso Solingen

[Joronas]

Hey all.

Found a luftwaffe dagger for sale and got real excited. But when looking on the pictures, that feeling kind of dropped.
The thing that made me loose most interest is the scabbard. I think it looks poor. But I've been wrong before.

What are your thought?

UPDATE! Dagger sold for aprox: 500 usd / 367 euro / 305 bgp





Cheers,
Jonas

[matty01]

Hi Jonas, still looking for a Luftwaffe - you should have bought mine. lol

yes the scabbard leather looks possibly gone but it can be replaced but not a cheap job. Wittman is about $150 to do it. The fittings look an odd shape and battered. Also missing a screw so you need to ask yourself whats been going on there.
Both Chains are one ring short to be textbook. Could have been shortened periodly so not the end of the world but really you want to see 6 smaller rings at the top and 9 lower rings.
Sadly not a marked clip, which collectors do like to see on these later pieces.

The swaz's have lost allot of the gilt, they never are in demand when this happens so allow for the price.

Blades a worry fella, probably don't need to say that. Also has a replacement leather washer, its too thick to be original.

Beings you asked I wouldn't bother. But as my father say 'he who pays the piper calls the tune' - (your paying mate so its your call).

best matty

[Larry C]

In general chains were 9 upper and 14 lower and some varied by the producer...or the "wearer if he was shorter".....Im curious for other comments if Alcoso made aluminum examples. The blade appears to be the early nickel plated type. Regards Larry

[matty01]

Hi Larry, your thinking of the nickel version mate they have 9 and 14 rings. The aluminium used allot bigger rings so didn't need as many.

best matty

[Joronas]

Hey Matty. Yes I am still on the lookout for a 1st model... I might almost add that I always will be by the look of things
The fittings were my main concern when i saw the dagger. I think it looks like almost homemade. Done using inferior material.

I never thought about the lenght of the chain so thanks for bringing that up.

I am really not that interested in buying this dagger. Much more interested in learning from it and see if my first thoughts on it were true.


Cheers,
Jonas

[Joronas]

In my reference book (wittman - exploring the dress daggers of the german luftwaffe) there is only one alcoso dagger. It is not alu but the chain is and is has 7 rings on the upper and 10 on the lower.

But there also appears to be other makes who have much more. I have an example of "F. & A. Helbig", and they have 10 on the upper and 15 on the lower.
Like you said Larry. Seem to differ from maker to maker etc

Cheers,
Jonas

[Rancid66]

Length of the first Model Luftwaffe dagger hanger is depended mostly on the choice of individual NCO or officers.
(Officers height , manner of walking.)
Therefore was important to determine the required length of dagger hanger - for dagger stability, during the walk.

Regards
Vedran

[matty01]

In my reference book (wittman - exploring the dress daggers of the german luftwaffe) there is only one alcoso dagger. It is not alu but the chain is and is has 7 rings on the upper and 10 on the lower.

But there also appears to be other makes who have much more. I have an example of "F. & A. Helbig", and they have 10 on the upper and 15 on the lower.
Like you said Larry. Seem to differ from maker to maker etc

Cheers,
Jonas

Hi Jonas, the nickel Luftwaffe you meantioned in wittmans book is a transitional nickel version utilising a aluminiuim chain so it will only have six smaller eyes on the top (or seven if you count the main ring too) and 9 lower (or 10 if you count the main ring on the scabbard too).

The nickel version on the higher chain will have nine (plus the scabbard ring so 10), and fourteen on the lower chain (or 15 including the scabbard ring).

The nickel chain was very elegant, small rings very precise. The aluminium was large rings put together as fast and as cheaply as possible.

Anyway this is the amount of rings each model would have had from the beginning be it aluminium or nickel. Although I like to have the 'full' amount of rings in the chain, I think it is acceptable to lose one or two as long as the amount is kept symmetrical off each length of chain otherwise the angle of which the dagger when worn wouldn't be correct.

I can never understand why people felt 1st pattern chains needed to be altered. If you think about it you cannot alter an army dagger strap because it is one piece. The same went for the 2nd pattern Luftwaffe strap hangers - the dagger hung where it hung.
Why did it seem necessary to mess about with these chains as NO other dagger hanger was adjustable?

Always makes me wonder if shortened chains was periodly done or whether a link broke and it was just repaired.

For this reason I like my FULL chains because as Im not convinced.

all my opinion not the gospel!

Best matty

[Joronas]

Thanks for the information and personal opinions.

Yeah Matty I did count the bigger main rings aswell when I mentioned the dagger from wittman's book.
Noticed the difference in size on the alu and nickel chain aswell. As you mentioned earlier.
The nickel looks much nicer, I think.

I understand soldiers who chose to alter their chainlenght since I would probably have done the same to make myself look the best I could.
I feel it sound logical when thinking about it now, just didnt occour to me until you guys mentioned it.

That said I would of course prefer an untouched chain on my dagger.


Best regards,
Jonas

[gerrit]

I would let this Luft at the sellers place.
Its been messed with to much.
It looks like the fittings have been sprayed with Alu paint.
the blade is not looking good, dont spoil your money on a bad one like this.

Ger