Luftwaffe forestry knife Waffen-Loesche Ch. A. W.

[HPL2008]

Maybe HPL2008 is so kind and willing to make global translations.

I will do so later today when I am home.

[Wilhelm Saris]

Then we can also agree that Johnson was basing his facts on hear say also;
" who " decides what is right ?

applaus



Thanks HPL2008 for this gesture!

[Anderson]

Ger's post #77 of the book "Edged Weapons of the Third Reich" Vol VII, page 337-338 featuring Robert Luczyk may prove to be a key piece of the puzzle. Because the reference says he worn such a knife, but DOES NOT say it was issued to him. A subtle but crucial difference. Now suppose other writers referencing this entry assumed that having a waffen-loesche knife must mean it was issued by the Luftwaffe to him, a huge and incorrect leap has been made.

Does anyone know the date that "Edged weapons of the Third Reich" was published, and also the date Carter's "The Sword & knife makers of Germany 1850-2000" was published, then lastly Wheeler's "Seitengewehr;history of the German bayonet 1919-1945"?

Lining them up in chronological order may show how the story passed from writer to writer, but like "Chinese whispers" may have changed in one significant way.

[gerrit]

So what did this thread brought us sofar, besides to some high blood pressure and cadiac issues?

Ch.A.W. might very well be NOT Chromolit Arthur Wingen but most likely Chef des Ausbildungs Wesen (Luftwaffe)
As this very Ch. A. W. can also be found on 98K .22 trainings rifles.

The fact they many of them have spine and crossguard markings and numbering makes them an issued sidearm and not a private purchase.
The combination of the Ch. A.W. marking ( Ausbildungs Wesen= Trainings departement issued knife) and the numbering ( arsenal marking) state the fact that they were issued and also explains the link to the Luftwaffe.
The fact that NON Ch. A.W. knives can be found state that private purchases were also possible and made, as in al brands of Luft, Navy and Army.

Could this be a foresty standhauer (as the shape of the grip with stagplates indicade) and therefore be within the regulations that Wilhelm postet? possible but not likely.
As there are claims of LW acceptance stamps by collectors on the tang it is likely that its an LW issued knife.

These markings AND the fact that they have staggrip plates could have led to the assuption that they are luftwaffe Forestry knives.
IMO its not clear sofar which unit they were issued too, but they are rare and very well build and issued.
IMO the most likely explaination is that these knives are issued by the LW training department (Luftwaffe Ausbildungs Wesen)
These recruits could have been assigned to forestry departments as cheap hands, building this way a luftwaffe forestry saga.

Regards
Ger

[Anderson]

The Waffen-Loesche knife has no Luftwaffe markings, according to a post I read from an owner of a marked W-L knife (W-L and Ch.AW) who took off the grip plates. How about your one Ger, any Luftwaffe marks under your grips?

And Ger you are abandoning your own post #20 where YOU showed the evidence that Ch.A.W. was Chromolit Arthur Wingen. All the book writers agree with this. Have you have abandoned it to find a theory to fit with Luftwaffe?

[Larry C]

This is a cardiac issue that leads to high blood pressure



This thread is a Gentlemanly and Progressive education and going very well.

[Larry C]

Johnsons Vol 7 was published in 1994

Wheeler in 1999 / first edition

Carters reference in 2015

[gerrit]

The Waffen-Loesche knife has no Luftwaffe markings, according to a post I read from an owner of a marked W-L knife (W-L and Ch.AW) who took off the grip plates. How about your one Ger, any Luftwaffe marks under your grips?

And Ger you are abandoning your own post #20 where YOU showed the evidence that Ch.A.W. was Chromolit Arthur Wingen. All the book writers agree with this. Have you have abandoned it to find a theory to fit with Luftwaffe?

Anderson i abandoned it because these exact markings can be found on Trainings rifles which Arthur Wingen DID NOT produced but Mauser, so it has to mean something else, and when its the abbr. is correct being a Luftwaffe departartment it also might explain the Luftwaffe link.
i quote:
You will also find the Ch A W markings on early Postschutz rifle stocks. These were the first of the newly manufactured Kar.98 rifles that were supposedly for the DRP but were tested by the Heer, according to Law. Law also interpreted this marking to be the You will also find the Ch A W markings on early Postschutz rifle stocks. These were the first of the newly manufactured Kar.98 rifles that were supposedly for the DRP but were tested by the Heer, according to Law. Law also interpreted this marking to be the Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen in his book on Mauser rifles. in his book on Mauser rifles.

I hang on to a theory as long as the facts dont prove them wrong, and imo the Ch.A.W. being a department marking and lots having arsenal numbers on the guard makes that a more plausible explanation then the Chromolit Wingen theory.

I will not try to open up mine, i will not take the risk to ruin a perfect sidearm, i am sure you can understand that.
Having the Ch.A.W. marking on the ricasso makes it already a Luft issued knife if its the abbr.of " Chef d. Ausbiltungs-Wesen" because that was Luftwaffe department.

Ger

But i think we make progress little by little

[Anderson]

Thank you Larry, that confirms my suspicion. Thomas Johnson's book that tell the story of Robert Luczyk the owner of a Waffen-loesche knife, was published BEFORE Wheeler's "Seitengewehr;history of the German bayonet" and Anthony Carters "Sword & knife makers of Germany 1850-2000 (I have a published date of 2001).

So both Wheeler and Carter could have been referring in their own books, to the story Johnson had published. Except they mistakenly assumed Robert Luczyk (pictured in a Luftwaffe uniform) was ISSUED the knife by the Luftwaffe. Johnson never said that. Chinese Whispers. May not be a "smoking gun" yet, but i think it's damn close.

we need to go further back, do earlier published writers tell the story of Robert Luczyk and his knife?

[Larry C]

Johnson is the Pioneer in published references which is the data he gathered while in Germany. There is no other that I know of that took a TR edged weapon and made it into a hobby of deeper study ...Wittmann followed suit.

Collecting Edged weapons is centuries old... the indepth examination is that of a few decades ago. No one ever wrote about it until James Atwood....then a deeper look into it by Tom Johnson and Wittmann.

All that there is left is period documentation stating the usage of this knife.

Regards Larry