Divisionsführer Stahlhelm Collar Tabs

[John Brandon]

I'm kinda hoping that Wilhelm Saris or Bob Coleman will chip in their tuppence worth on these.......

They say you can't know everything about everything - and this item fits that bill perfectly for me - I am unsure of what they are! The closest I have come is as the heading suggests- They maybe SA but I cannot find the exact colour in any of my numerous books I have. I have searched the internet and trawled websites They are period collar tabs without any doubt, the material is quite coarse and the oak leaf is not bendable (if that is a word) What I do know is the rank of Divisionsführer in the Stahlhelm organization fits...... Unless anyone can give me further information - they will be sold as exactly this!

Thanks

[Wilhelm Saris]

Isn't this just a Gruppenführer for the districts Westmark or Niedersachsen?
The color seems to be brownish. Maybe the color is somewhat faded.

I cannot believe this to be a Divisionsführer for the Stahlhelm-organization,
specifically Nachrichtenmittel, as they did have brown. I do not believe there
was one person with this rank in this special force, as far as I know.

[John Brandon]

I don't know Wilhelm - I'm stuck! I thank you for your time in your reply - and I value your opinion - So they "are" SA? - probably knowing my luck they are fake

[Wilhelm Saris]

I cannot comment on originality, sorry!
The brown material seems strange too me in some ways.
But photos can deceive.....

[Wilhelm Saris]

John,

I must admit I even do not know if higher ranked members of the Stahlhelm
did use the same pattern oakleaves as you show with the collar-patches.
I had a look in my files about what type of oakleaves were worn within the Sta,
but they are quite different. See for yourself:



Brigadeführer



Bundeshauptmann

Compare the leaves: SA are slender; Sta are more rounded.
And for these higher ranks they are embroidered!

[John Brandon]

Thanks
This is what I found whilst surfing about. The Red ones are Gruppenführerfor the SA.. The Brown ones with the extra pip on are for Obergruppenführer and the last ones are for Divisionsführer Stahlhelm...so yes they look more like number 2

Similar? The same? I don't know anymore.....I'm expected to get it right and know everything.....impossible


BTW I just bought a large collection and your enamel signs book was in amongst the items - along with 5 enamel signs - what a great book Wilhelm

[Wilhelm Saris]

Hello John,

I do not have any evidence the shown collar-patches are for Stahlhelm.
I cannot find any photo actually showing these.



The leaves as actually used were quite different. See and compare with
what is shown in post 5. Who knows there was a lack of device and
they used the pattern for the SA as well, possibly for a very short time.
For Stahlhelm the leaves are anyway much too slender.

I checked masses of Stahlhelm-photographs and I cannot find one photo
with the slender oak-leaves. For the lower ranked individuals the device
is shown and in fact with many more photographs from the same pattern:





The last one is from Tüllmann, the leader for the Landesverband Nordmark:



No slender leaves. Look how the leaves fill up the patches.The middle leaf
does not touch the corner, as with your shown sample.
For me someone tried to make a Stahlhelm-pattern, but did not look well
what actually was used and worn.
There were just 30 - 35 persons allowed to wear the pattern you show.

Yes, the enamel sign-book is a good book. Not ever before a book was
dedicated to the subject if enameled Third Reich signs.

[John Brandon]

Hello John,

I do not have any evidence the shown collar-patches are for Stahlhelm.
I cannot find any photo actually showing these.



The leaves as actually used were quite different. See and compare with
what is shown in post 5. Who knows there was a lack of device and
they used the pattern for the SA as well, possibly for a very short time.
For Stahlhelm the leaves are anyway much too slender.

Yes, the enamel sign-book is a good book. Not ever before a book was
dedicated to the subject.

Thanks Wilhelm - I appreciate the time you have taken to comment ...I think you are right about them not being SH tabs

And in the collection were 5 enamel signs that are actually featured in the book - I think they originally belonged to the co author

[Wilhelm Saris]

Thanks Wilhelm - I think you are right about them not being SH tabs

And in the collection were 5 enamel signs that are actually featured in the book - I think they originally belonged to the co author

Not the subject of this thread about the collar-patch:

My co-author for that book was the persons who owned the material from the stolen collection.
Did you check the signs with the ones from the stolen collection? www.stolenitemsww2.com

I know quite some signs were sold just before the theft. But to be sure, please check them.
The Belgium police is investigating and one never knows one can find the "middle man"!

[John Brandon]

I know he was the one who lost all the pieces. These have been in a collection for some time, they are not particually rare or in tip top condition 😁dont worry....i checked...and had a notice on my website to make people aware