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metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked

Article about: Hello all, Looks to at one time have had four reverse pins on it. Any thoughts on this one? It has an RZM logo on the reverse, but I may be blind and cannot see a number with a M1 prefix any

  1. #11

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    I have read through this thread from WAF about five pages long with alot of contribution from our very own Stonemint who delved rather deeply into the subject, alot of the following images are ones he posted in that thread. Here are some samples for further discussion. I d love to hear Stoney's take on the subject.

    metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked

    Catalogue photo circa 70's? Supposedly not from Delta international.

    Diplomats Metal Cap Eagle Fake or Real?? - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    It seems to me the biggest holdup for authenticating these pieces as period is the sole RZM mark minus the manufactureres code and M1 prefix, which is understandable to be sure. But IMO as equally a good question is when was the last time we/you encountered or saw a fake piece of TR regalia W/O a M1 prefix and MM? I think generally fakers go way overboard with markings on pieces. On this particular piece I think the quality is the determining factor. Just an observation.
    Last edited by bsiwula1; 10-17-2017 at 04:09 PM.

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    Circuit advertisement metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked
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  3. #12

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    metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked

    I would like to make it clear that I do not intend to attribute all these examples directly to DELTA INTERNATIONAL.

    I shall make no comment on chronology.

    With the addition of this Lakesidetrader, I contend we now have a group of three made by the same manufacturer, perhaps even on the same tooling.

    The tooling itself is high quality and shows skill and experience with low pressure cast molding.

    As an afterthought, Lakeside appears to be the same WAF image.
    Last edited by stakeside; 10-17-2017 at 12:59 AM. Reason: OLDTHINGS

  4. #13

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    Oddly enough another example previously posted on our site. Imo marked the same but slightly less detail, of course it could be the pictures?

    metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked


    Diplomatic Cap badge Reall or a fake ?

    One last example for comparison this one sold by John T from germanwarbooty.com again simple RZM stamp.

    metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked

    Diplomatic Corps Visor Cap Eagle
    Last edited by bsiwula1; 10-17-2017 at 02:29 PM.

  5. #14

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    ALL1KNEW OBVERSE Left Image............................................. ......................DAVEKJ OBVERSE Right Image

    metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked

    Upon comparison I am convinced that the same obverse tooling was used to make both examples. However, the detailing is crisp on the DAVEKJ while the mold shows more wear on the ALL1KNEW eagle.

    metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked

    ALL1KNEW REVERSE Left Image............................................. ........................DAVEKJ REVERSE Right Image

    The DAVEKJ reverse caught me by surprise because the image reminded me of M. C. ESCHER......I looked repeatedly before understanding that I was seeing a completely different reverse mold and casting method. This side is convex, not concave resulting in a thicker and much heavier eagle.

    I contend that both examples were made by the same manufacturer using the very same tooling for the obverse eagles, but radically different tooling for the reverse. This only bolsters my opinion of the skill and experience of the maker.

    I can offer no chronology much less a reason for the two radically different casting methods used by this master artisan.

    The GERMANWARBOOTY eagle just might be comparable to the ALL1KNEW eagle, but better photos would be needed.

  6. #15

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    So gentleman I think I've presented quite a bit of photograhs for comparison, and am ready to state my opinion on the validity of these diplomatic eagles.

    1. From the WAF posts there were points of debate by collectors, historians, researchers, as to wether or not these pieces would of even fallen under the RZM's scrutiny/sanctions/jurisdiction, of quality standards what have you. So I propose If these badges were produced mid 34 early 35 as I first thought, when licenses were being awarded confusion could of also existed amongst manufactureres as well, should they (the badges) or shouldn't they have an RZM stamp and MM, or is it possible they were working on perfecting their tooling dies, production process etc..? Who s to say as no factual evidence proves or disproves this theroy, or none to my knowledge.

    2. Fakes of this particular insignia do exist without doubt. I didn't include pictures of them from WAF thread but they can be seen there, they are very crude by comparison. No reverse detail, almost solid cast, and others with thin wire attachment pins like I ve never seen on any TR era badges.

    3. The period catalogue photograph page from whatever dealer describes their badge dimensions as 4 1/2" whereas all the dealer sites list their badges dimensions as 4 3/4". Not proof of real vs repro but certainly worth a mention, as a 1/4 is a rather large number considering the overall size of the badge.

    4. This cap badge did indeed exist in period as the photographic evidence supports it for lower level diplomatic members (included within this post). So if the RZM versions are NOT authentic then I'm stumped as to what/which ones are as I can only find these examples that I find believable, as far as detail goes.

    5. Some very respected dealers have sold these as legitimate, I have shown examples from various vendors. Again not definitive proof, but it does show that at least a portion of the hobby accepts them as originals, or a select group of the RZM marked pieces as originals.

    Bottom line is these badges are a bit of a riddle/enigma in our hobby, perhaps not as disputed as say the Lorient shield but within the same scope of discussion. Personally I like the detail of the RZM pieces especially Williams that started the discussion, amongst a few others. And I don't think anyone could fault William for selling this piece as possibly authentic or authentic if that is his intention. Unfortunately I must go against my better judgement here as my belief/argument is not based in FACT, nor would I simply argue the point that it's real because I say it's real, should evidence come out to prove the contrary. Kindest regards.

    Brian

  7. #16

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    A RZM mark on the insignia of a civil organization does not make any sense. RZM control of items was specifically for NSDAP organizations . The lack of a manufacturer's identification code is also a red flag. If not a Delta product, others are likely copies of the Delta eagle copying the incorrect detail.
    BOB

    LIFE'S LOSERS NEVER LEARN FROM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS.

  8. #17

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    metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM markedmetal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked

    Lastly photos of the badges I would deem fake. The obverse of the solid back version is somewhat convincing but it would be extremely heavy for a delicate cap, and the reverse is an abomination. The thin wire prong variant is obviously a different style Diplo eagle but the prong attachment is bananas especially with the excess solder. And the other two images are of modern reproductions currently on the market. All images from WAF discussion thread.

    Brian

    To be clear I am not trying to let a fox into the henhouse here. But surely there would of been loose insignia found postwar, as not all we're utilized on caps without one extra being discovered. So I'm searching for what could be a more convincing original badge compared to the sole RZM marked pieces.

  9. #18

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    Quote by BOB COLEMAN View Post
    A RZM mark on the insignia of a civil organization does not make any sense. RZM control of items was specifically for NSDAP organizations . The lack of a manufacturer's identification code is also a red flag. If not a Delta product, others are likely copies of the Delta eagle copying the incorrect detail.
    All I can say is i ve NEVER been so HAPPY to stand corrected. It's great to hear your input my friend!! It s a mysterious badge to be certain and I'm glad to hear your opinion on the issue, as certainly I defer to your observation. The civil badge RZM input argument was made on the WAF as well, I looked past it as I saw no viable alternative to what other badge could be considered period original. But all that aside I'm extremely happy to hear your input. My kindest regards.

    Brian

  10. #19

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    To echo Brian's recent discussion on EHRENRINGE, I propose that we name ALL1KNEW 's Diplomatic style eagle the.....

    .................................................. .................................................. .......................HOLY COW EAGLE

  11. #20

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    Gents, I don't have much to add aside from what I said in the old WAF thread.
    We know that metal diplo eagles and wreaths were worn during the TR, but all of the ones I have seen are of the type in this thread, and there are scores of them for sale everywhere.

    I never bought the Delta fakes.
    The other company that sold them was WW2 Inc out of St Louis MO in the 1970s.
    (This photo posted above is from their catalog).
    I never bought one of their eagles, but everything in their catalog was fake (or parts daggers).
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture metal Diplomatic style eagle - RZM marked  
    NEC SOLI CEDIT

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