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NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

Article about: From what I have read on old threads this one stands a good chance. Reverse detail not mushy, RZM mark visible in the correct location, green paint. Sadly it is missing a wing tab. Any opini

  1. #21

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    I would like to contribute more information on the National Sozialistiche Kraftfahr Korps NSKK tags.

    The first tag comes from ROSSI 06-10-2017. His sturzhelm was identified by Bob Coleman as being a Motor Standarte 72. While no one actually used the word REAL, the consensus appears to be favorable from, among others, MAP, AZ Phil, Wagriff and UK Cousin.

    ..................ROSSI.................

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    The next tag was posted by MAXIMUS 71 on 01-16-2013. I was unable to post a photo of the sturzhelm itself, but the adler has the characteristic round contour at the bottom of the breast. Bob Coleman says....This sturzhelm has all the bells and whistles one would expect to find in a period original piece. HARRYAMB2 seconds this saying..."nice one".

    ..............MAXIMUS 71.............

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    The third tag was posted by MAP 05-08-2014 and he called it the FRANKENSTEIN helmet.

    ....................MAP..................

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    In post #3 of this 05-08 -2014 thread Wilhelm Saris states.....

    These helmets normally did not fel (sic) under an A-code, but an L6-code from the RZM.
    The helmet may have been an earlier used Motor-SA version, which was handed over to NSKK stocks when the Motor-SA was incorporated within the NSKK.
    Helmets lagely (sic) were no property from the members, but from the unit he belonged to!

    The MAP adler is similar to the MAXIMUS and IVBAUST adlers and they all agree with the Assmann catalogue posted by bsiwula1.

    I surmise that this might establish a chronology for these earlier version sturzhelm. In fact, the earlier Motor-SA adlers may not have required an RZM logo on their adlers. What is missing is a connection to the ALIKAT BIRD OF A FEATHER which has not only this characteristic round bottom, but a distinctive round feather on the obverse directly on top of the RZM logo on the reverse. It might be a later version which did call for an RZM logo on the adlers for NSKK crash helmets.

    I await both close-ups from ALIKAT and ROSSI with abated breath.....Doug.
    Last edited by stakeside; 10-26-2017 at 05:05 AM. Reason: ROSSI DETAILS

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  3. #22
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    The eagle has landed, and there is a 17 stamp quite legible on the inside. When wifey gives me back my camera chip I will post some pics.
    Cheers,
    Al

  4. #23
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    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?
    Cheers,
    Al

  5. #24

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    ALIKAT.....It may be too early for a beer, so I propose a toast with coffee instead.

    Your BIRD OF A FEATHER was not stamped from a blank/slug like the totenkopf visor cap skulls were coined. For an analogy, think of an aluminum beer can. The blank is struck with enough tonnage that the cold forming extrudes the metal into all nooks and crannies of the dies.

    Your adler was stamped from sheet, but with considerable tonnage that some cold forming extrusion also took place. Your example is also what is called a BOLD STRIKE, meaning that all the parameters of production came together to make exceptional quality. It was probably not made on a Monday or Friday, if you can understand that humor.

    We must be patient for ROSSI to post his photo. There is no rush, but I hope he did not misunderstand me thinking I wanted him to pry his adler off for a photo of the reverse (backside).
    Heaven FORBID ! ! !

    Not to hurt ROSSI 's feelings, but I suspect that his adler was stamped on a Monday or Friday......Doug.

  6. #25
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    No worries here Doug. Here are the best new close up pictures I can come up with. Hope I have nailed the shot you were looking for of the Adler.

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?


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  7. #26

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    ROSSI & ALIKAT......just what I expected. While not confirmed by documentation or forum consensus, ROSSI's adler was made on a Monday or Friday. Either the sheet metal was thinner than specifications, the dies were not adjusted to fully close.....or things happen.

    I must take my wife to her physical therapy class and that means someone is paying for dinner. I shall post more details later this evening.

    My thanks to everyone for sharing.....Doug.

  8. #27

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    ALIKAT.....I want to propose a toast to your BIRD OF A FEATHER and ask other members to give their opinions as well. This is the first time I feel comfortable to declare an item as REAL.
    My reasons follow:

    (1) I am not a war relics collector like most members. I joined and paid my membership dues willingly so I could research some one-off war relic gifts for Niklas. I did not start by opening a thread that might appear as a one-night-stand. I was shocked at how pervasive the FAKE market has become. For this reason ALIKAT 's adler is unique. I found it difficult to find discussions of any FAKE adlers, much less an adler declared REAL by forum consensus. Even the problematic crash helmets (Sturzhelme) are limited to just a handful of threads compared to the NARVIK SHIELD or the TOTENKOPF visor cap skulls. The lack of FAKES only bolsters my opinion of ALIKAT 's helmadler.

    (2) ALIKAT 's helmadler is of such quality that any FAKE would require a considerable investment to amortize. While ALIKAT probably spent good money for it, there is no way that it could finance only one FAKE.

    (3) I hesitate to state that ALIKAT 's helmadler is unissued as that implies even more documentation. It is obviously unused. I suggest that it was once part of a sample board of abzeichen issued to manufacturers so they could order RZM certified items by number to complete their contracts. Any supplier would want to display the BEST. It might have been a sample with string, tag and lead RZM seal.

    (4) The distinctive round feather at the bottom of the breast appears on other threads mentioned, and I contend it agrees with the WEAK strike observed on ROSSI 's helmadler. More discussion will follow tomorrow with information from Wilhelm Saris who agrees with some of my observations and gives me permission to quote him.

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    While I propose a beer to all those who enjoyed this thread, I would like to have more than one stein.

    MAP 05-08-2014....I want to make it clear that I am not making fun of his "FRANKENSTEIN" crash helmet. I totally agree with most of the favorable comments about it.

    In fact, MAP 's helmet is most IMPORTANT for understanding the transition of Motor-SA equipment to the NSKK when the helmadler was only allowed to be manufactured by a firm which had RZM certification as of 09 June 1934. FRANKENSTEIN helps all crash helmet collectors understand this pivotal point in the chronology. It also helps explain why helmadler RON 03-27-2011 was approved by consensus in spite of the fact that it had no RZM logo nor maker's mark. It must have been made before 1934. A REAL chronology is being established which could be a reference for crash helmet enthusiasts.

    I invite MAP to post a photo of the same comparable area of the adler's breast for juxtaposition to ROSSI and ALIKAT. Because of FRANKENSTEIN 's important place in the chronology, I am willing to bet another stein of beer that it does not show the distinctive round feather seen on ALIKAT and ROSSI.

    I plan to continue this analysis tomorrow morning (PST) with quotes from Wilhelm Saris as well. I must be my wife's caretaker, demoted to part time status today.....Doug
    Last edited by stakeside; 10-26-2017 at 05:10 AM.

  9. #28

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    With the help of Wilhelm Saris I believe we can make these images speak for themselves. We have identified at least two different helmadler designs, one with a round contour at the bottom of the breast, the second has a characteristic W-shaped contour. While specific manufacturers cannot be assigned in most cases, we may in fact be dealing with only two manufacturers. There may be some examples in which the same obverse die is used before and after 1934 with the only difference being the modification of the reverse die with the RZM logo and maker's assigned number.

    I shall retype Wilhelm Saris 's PM verbatim with the exception of the umlaut.......

    yes, the eagle for the helmet, also for the SA, was only allowed to be manufactured by a concern with a RZM-permission (Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei, nr. 2 from June 9, 1934, page 2: 11.34 Genehmigungspflichtige Gegenstaende section Abzeichen a): Helmadler fuer Sturzhelme)........I did not discuss the eagle-pattern, nor did I discuss this in-depth in volume 3.

    For those considering the RZM/NSKK tags in post #21 , Wilhelm Saris also adds that L6 sturzhelm manufacturers are indeed listed in volume #4.

    .............................................ALIKA T................................................. .....................ROSSI....................

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?.....Attachment 1125608

    I do not have bsiwula1's skills with the images. In a somewhat crude analysis of the ROSSI image, I made an enlarged paper print-out. While not so scientific, I do believe this is a WEAK STRIKE and that the feather in question shows signs of deformation caused by the RZM logo on the reverse die. The sheet metal must have been thin rather than the die not closing all the way.

    However, to the naked eye, I contend that the TALON-PRINT comes from the same obverse die. There is no need to make transparencies to be overlaid.

    Moreover, FRANKENSTEIN not only has no sign of the round feather in question......it has a different TALON-PRINT indicating a different obverse die. While suspiciously similar to the ALIKAT/ROSSI adlers, that is no proof that it can be positively assigned to Assmann. But it does connect FRANKENSTEIN to a pivotal period in 1934.

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?
    Attached Images Attached Images NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler? 
    Last edited by stakeside; 10-26-2017 at 04:23 AM. Reason: SPELLING

  10. #29

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    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    .......................GLENNYBOY619............... .................................................. ..........FRANKENSTEIN.........

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    I need bsiwula1 's expertise......SCHNURRBART.......

    Again as a crude method to enlarge the images for better comparison, I made paper print-outs. While the proof is inconclusive, GLENNYBOY619 and SCHNURRBART share the distinctive round bottom feather and might be from the very same obverse die as ALIKAT and ROSSI. FRANKENSTEIN has a different TALON-PRINT. The tooling may be different, but it suspiciously looks like Assmann. The feather in question looks more like what is....a feather.

    Wilhelm Saris and many others discussed the possible chronology of FRANKENSTEIN....Doug.
    Last edited by stakeside; 10-26-2017 at 01:34 AM.

  11. #30
    MAP
    MAP is offline
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    Quote by stakeside View Post

    MAP 05-08-2014....I want to make it clear that I am not making fun of his "FRANKENSTEIN" crash helmet. I totally agree with most of the favorable comments about it.

    In fact, MAP 's helmet is most IMPORTANT for understanding the transition of Motor-SA equipment to the NSKK when the helmadler was only allowed to be manufactured by a firm which had RZM certification as of 09 June 1934. FRANKENSTEIN helps all crash helmet collectors understand this pivotal point in the chronology. It also helps explain why helmadler RON 03-27-2011 was approved by consensus in spite of the fact that it had no RZM logo nor maker's mark. It must have been made before 1934. A REAL chronology is being established which could be a reference for crash helmet enthusiasts.

    I invite MAP to post a photo of the same comparable area of the adler's breast for juxtaposition to ROSSI and ALIKAT. Because of FRANKENSTEIN 's important place in the chronology, I am willing to bet that it does not show the distinctive round feather seen on ALIKAT and ROSSI.
    LoL! No worries. I was the one who called this a Frankenstein. I have seen only ONE other like it on a website somewhere. The neck/ear flaps are all hand fabricated and added AFTER the construction of the helmet (and probably well after the helmet was issued and used given that it is named inside). And it is a very very early example.

    Nice detective work. I always say the research is more fun than the item.

    Here are some quick snaps of the Adler. These are high rez do click to enlarge and click again to expand even more.

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?

    NSKK 1st Model crash helmet adler?
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

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