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NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

Article about: by Wagriff Guymauve -would you have or have a link so that we can see a Klasse 4 diploma? It would be most interesting to see an example of both Klasses. Was there such a thing as a Klasse 1

  1. #31

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    Guymauve -would you have or have a link so that we can see a Klasse 4 diploma? It would be most interesting to see an example of both Klasses. Was there such a thing as a Klasse 1 and a Klasse 2? It would seemingly make sense that 1 and 2 must exist, or else why not name the 3 and 4's that? And, if they Do exist, what does a diploma for each of them look like as well?
    HI Wagriff.
    It is a bit mixed up, i will try and help. On post 16 of this thread, he notes that they were "always painted and never enameled". Post 17 proves this wrong.
    The Klasse IV is a typing error from Guymauve, which started on post 18, where he states that the green badge was for klasse IV.
    This has now been changed to klasse II, on post 25.
    So the stand now, is that the green badge was for klasse II, and also stated by Guymauve is that this is;
    as say it certain period German newspapers if you had read it

    Unfortunately i haven't read that in a German newspaper, so far, so am really looking forward, as i guess are many, to Guymauve uploading, or referencing the exact source, the exact newspaper, where this is either pictured or mentioned in reference to the NSKK Female drivers. I will do the footwork as long as i am given a pointer as to where to look! (Archive number, newspaper name|number etc...)

    In the meantime, i can pass along the Klasse as you asked, which dont come from my research, but were related to me by Wim Saris.
    KLASSE I motor-cycles
    KLASSE II Trucks over 2,5 Tons
    KLASSE III Trucks less than 2,5 Tons
    KLASSE IV Four wheeled vehicles up to 400 cc & 350 kg; from 1937 also for four wheeled vehicles up to 250 cc & 20 kmph, (i:e: Tractors)

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  3. #32

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Quote by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    In the meantime, i can pass along the Klasse as you asked, which dont come from my research, but were related to me by Wim Saris.
    KLASSE I motor-cycles
    KLASSE II Trucks over 2,5 Tons
    KLASSE III Trucks less than 2,5 Tons
    KLASSE IV Four wheeled vehicles up to 400 cc & 350 kg; from 1937 also for four wheeled vehicles up to 250 cc & 20 kmph, (i:e: Tractors)
    Just for the sake of accuracy, do allow me one tiny correction: Class III was, of course, not just for trucks under 2.5 tons, but for motor cars as well. ["Kraftwagen bis 2,5 Tonnen" = "motor vehicles up to 2.5 tons"].

    (Class II and III would of course have been the relevant classes for women working as Kriegskraftfahrerinnen.)

  4. #33

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Quote by HPL2008 View Post
    Just for the sake of accuracy, do allow me one tiny correction: Class III was, of course, not just for trucks under 2.5 tons, but for motor cars as well. ["Kraftwagen bis 2,5 Tonnen" = "motor vehicles up to 2.5 tons"].

    (Class II and III would of course have been the relevant classes for women working as Kriegskraftfahrerinnen.)
    Yes, truck should read Motor Vehicle. Mia Culpa.

  5. #34

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Hi
    The Klasse IV is a typing error from Guymauve, which started on post 18, where he states that the green badge was for klasse IV.
    No it was not a typing error, it was a voluntary error to see if somebody knew the subject.
    where this is either pictured or mentioned in reference to the NSKK Female drivers
    To my knowledge, these drivers were not members of the nskk but trained by the nskk...

    I put years to find information without internet, by reading newspapers, official documents and even to listen to testimonies of these women.
    Why I had not thought of it: it is enough to offer 100 dollars to know the truth in 5 minutes!

    Let us speak now about your enamelled badge #17
    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/milita...o-dscn1853.jpg
    The photo result from an article of Uwe Lautenschläger in the magazine "Orden und Ehrenzeichen".
    It is said also at the bottom of the description:
    " Eine Serienfertigung, sofern geplant, kam durch die Kriegsereignisse nicht mehr Zustande. Es handelt sich um das derzeit einzige bekannte Abzeichen in dieser Ausführung. "
    Uwe Lautenschläger also says:
    " Wurden die Abzeichen, je nach bestandener Klasse in rot bzw. grün lackierter Ausführung überreicht ".
    The author arrives at the same conclusion as me: the green badge existed well.
    If you rely on her for the authenticity of the enamelled badge, you will also rely on her for the green badge?
    Cheers

  6. #35

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Hi Guymauve
    Thanks for your reply.

    You clearly have no idea of my research do you, but not to worry, i am only too willing to share.

    Firstly no, there are very few authors i do agree with.
    Secondly, what is your reasoning behind this comment? If i read "something" and chose to believe a part of that "something", does that automatically mean that i am obliged to believe everything? No of course not. The parts of "something" i believe in, i believe because i can back up my beliefs, with solid evidence.
    To answer your question now, NO, i do not agree with the article, and was on the phone to Heinz yesterday actually, as my intention is to cover this properly in the near future, either in a collectors magazine, or another book. Heiz advised me that he will bring this topic up at the next (held every 4 weeks) meeting, and then he will let me know the outcome. I have no illusions that they will let me use the original, because they will also know the nature of my intended "coverage" of the green badge. (I dont even need to use the image of the enameled badge, because i know where a second one is - so here the article is wrong as well - but we will see, maybe they will let me, in any case, rest assured that this article will also be covered and corrected by me, as will the other authors who have incorrectly covered this green badge)

    I repeat my initial question to you, which you only need to reply to Iif you can back up what you are saying.
    What more "evidence" do you have other than what you think? what more evidence do you have that Angolia did not have in 1995, when they state that they have no idea what the green badge was for, and have no more info? And btw, that MMA article, well did you see the footnotes? did you? They used the 1995 Angolia book, which as we have seen, is nothing more than a person showing a badge and say; "We have no idea what it was for. And how many fakes and fantasy items can we find in Angolia books? MANY, so why should i chose to believe that when they show a badge they know nothing about, and state the same, that it could be real?

    So far, i can prove that all M1/35 badges are fakes, i can prove that the enameled Deschler, struck on a messing-plated eisen planchet, and enameled in red, was made by Deschler, and that Deschler indeed used the same obverse die for the zinc variants of the NSKK badges they made, in red. To date, no green badges are known by Deschler, only red. To date every time when an URKUNDE and badge are seen for sale, the badge is by Deschler, and it is red.

    Then again, lets look at the article, what should i "believe" about the pictured green badge? because, NOTHING is written about it at all! All it shows, are the common, and what you guys accept as original, M1/35 marked badge, accompanied by NOT A SHRED of information So Guymauve, what should i believe here? because there is nothing written to believe!

    Maybe you mean i should just believe because in the same article the enameled Deschler is shown, which i say is good? Well of course it is good, but it is good not because i want to believe, or chose to believe, but because i can physically prove, that it was made my Deschler, thats why. It was stamped under the exact same obverse die, that can be linked to unquestionably authentic NSKK Red badges, made by Deschler. (At least 2 different badges - markings - are known)

    No Guymauve, you did not change Klasse IV to Klasse II on purpose, to see if anyone knew, you did it simply because you made a mistake, and then after you desperately searched around the net, you found that the green badge was referred to as Klasse II on WAF and Stirnpazer forum. And sorry to sound negative, but you have, once more, failed to upload anything of use - following on the tradition of ranting about something that you are "right" about, and a "master of", yet refuse to back up what you are saying with anything. Just hoping that people will believe you.

    My article on these badges will be some 50-60 pages long, nothing really i could even touch on in a forum thread, but as with everything, it will be factually backed up, logically backed up, and rounded off with a forensic examination. Below is a small example of what i use to help me when examining badges, not just a brief Internet image comparison, supported by what i think, or would like to believe. In time Guymauve, it will become clear to you that they are people out there, who really do, know what they are talking about. I can also package my opinion very well, and support it hands down on all fronts, including debate and reasoning. The conclusions that i reach, are indisputable, period, full stop!

    Below, two of the 3 known Deschler versions. Although one of the badges has lost all its red and black paint, and shows zinc pest to the obverse, and even though both are marked to the reverse in a totally different manner, the obverses were stamped under the identical obverse die, the same die used for the enameled ones.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    How do we know this? well once micro images are taken of the letters N.S.K.K, from both badges - i mean around 120 images in total, all layered onto of each other to show the full image - and then slightly resized, you get to see a small image, of the full slogan, but in huge magnification, revealing each and every die flaw, making it possible, so say with 100% certainty, that both badges could only have been stamped under the exact same working die. (the same research is done on fakes, and makes it possible to be sure if a badge is a fake or not - providing you know what you are doing and what to look for)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    To end this long post, which of course interests nobody due to the overwhelming lack of factual response... in my recent book, i open the doors to the reader of a new way of authentication, as well as covering many fake badges, and fake RZM numbers used by forgers - showing the reader what to look for regarding period tooling and die construction vs. forgery. For those collectors, like me, who are just absolutely sick and tired of posts like yours, (No personal attack, just the way you respond is atypical of many who like to scream that their stuff is genuine yet do not have a leg to stand on or anything of fact to offer in it`s support) my book offers a new way of judging the items we collect. I have exposed a good few badges in my book which are in-print for decades as good, and even in museums as good... and you can believe me when i say that i have only just started. This NSKK green badge, is but one of at least 50 badges that i will be covering in the future, and exposing.

    Until a green Deschler badge turns up (that must be examined in detail to see if it has not been repainted) i must stick to my opinion that there was only ever a red badge - at least this is what history, facts and research is steering us towards at the moment.

    Night Shift calls, back on the weekend.

  7. #36

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Quote by Guymauve View Post
    No it was not a typing error, it was a voluntary error to see if somebody knew the subject.
    Really.

    Quote by Guymauve View Post
    I put years to find information without internet, by reading newspapers, official documents and even to listen to testimonies of these women.
    So why then do you have to rely on a modern-day secondary literature article to support your statements rather than simply post any of those period newspaper articles/offical documents, thus ending the argument once and for all and coming out as the winner?

    Quote by Guymauve View Post
    Uwe Lautenschläger also says:
    " Wurden die Abzeichen, je nach bestandener Klasse in rot bzw. grün lackierter Ausführung überreicht ".
    ...Although he fails to turn up any hard evidence for this conclusion. In his article in IMM # 137, he makes it clear that he bases this assumption on two circumstances...:

    a) The existence of Class 3 documents with the word "Verleihungs-Urkunde" in red print.
    (This is simply assumed to correspond to the color of the red badges. Nowhere does he claim to have seen corresponding Class 2 documents with green print!)

    b) The fact that in his experience the green badges are rarer than the red ones.

    ...Which, to be blunt, is not even circumstancial evidence.

  8. #37

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Just to elaborate on post 11 on this thread, now that i have found time to check, the poster is correct, and the green badge does appear for the first time in post war literature not in the early 90`s in the Hüsken catalogs, but indeed on page 48 of the 1985 book by Ray Cowdery. Of note though, is not that none of the badges are accompanied by any info - but rather the following.
    On the same page, 48, of that book, there is another well known "faked" badge. As well as a fantasy badge on page 76 :-)
    Just some food for thought.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    To bring something else to your attention, which, if you were interested in small badges (i understand that not everybody is, hence the mention) you would have noticed.
    The Quality of an original, in this case a Deschler made badge, with the rough edges filed down on the reverse, the badge has also been galvanisch-versilbert, (silver-washed) and then it has been zaponiert. (coated with a clear coat of varnish to help protect the surface - although the reverses were naturally also varnished)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And the "quality" - if you want to call it that - of the M1/35 marked red and green badges. NONE OF THEM, have ever seen a days action in their entire lives. Brand spankers, the lot of them! Not to mention, that M1/35, is not an RZM M/ code that we find on genuine small round badges! Or maybe you know of period RZM small round badges that show the numbers M1/35? because i surely do not, and i have looked at a few, more than likely a few tens of thousands, small round RZM M1/ period badges. The use of the number M1/35 post war might also be able to be connected to "someone" if we take into consideration what happened to the company of M1/35, Wächtler und Lange after the war
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 07-26-2013 at 08:14 AM. Reason: sheer bordom :-)

  9. #38

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    here is Jo waiting to make the $100 donation poor old sod LOL or is it Guymauve trying to find that historic newspaper article again?

    all them badges do look new and fugly! i like that one above tho the bubbles are evident on other period finished zinc badges i have owed in the past wound badges and the like!

    atb with your quest Jo!
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  10. #39

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Ewan, once you have a good idea of the items needed, and produced during the final war years, as well as understanding the circumstances that they were produced under, i.e: Bombs dropping on your head, food rationing, material rationing etc.. it becomes even possible to separate the zinc, or "war years" into periods as well. Starting from late 1942 into late 1944.
    From the next badge we see that Descher got a second order for these, and judging by the quality now, it must have been late, around mid 1944 i would think. This time we see that the badge has not been silver-washed, and has not been treated with clear varnish, but simply painted - on a base metal of lesser quality that the first. (Or what i would think were the first badges from mid 1943 that are well made, like the Deschler in my last post.)

    As mentioned, the same obverse working die was used on these as well, and only the reverse die has now changed, meaning that they were not made at the same time, but rather that they were made after, using a different reverse die, and using whatever they had at that time. When i say "That Time", i mean simply around the end of the war, when people had been taken from the factories and used as target practice, and all that was left were old and crippled folk, who would most probably have been more interested in where their next meal was coming from, instead of worrying about RZM rules, or worrying about making "perfect" badges ▬ in-between the bombs falling on their heads!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And Ewan, to be fair to Guymauve, it is not really him at all, it`s just atypical of what many collectors will use as "proof" to themselves, and on-line in, the hope of convincing a few others, and "keeping" their items genuine. We are all at fault really, as since the first kleinabzeichenkataloge came out, none of us, has done anything to correct the wrong, in fact the opposite, we still cling to old straws, and use old post war literature as definite proof! We have let the collectors and dealers put together these "Reference books" and we have not challenged them at all.

  11. #40

    Default Re: NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

    Interesting what I read here. I would like to see the first shred of paper from a document,
    letter or magazine-article, published from BEFORE the end of the war about these
    females and badges.
    These females were trained that's for sure, but what do we further know about them? Not really
    that much!

    The name Cowdery was mentioned. I do not have that book which includes badges, but I do
    have the one with buckles (Nazi Buckles, Psychology and the Fighting Spirit), released in 1982.
    This man neither has any knowledge about buckles.

    This is what a Canadian friend wrote in July 1983 (now thirty years ago), when he did send me a copy
    of Cowdery's buckle book:
    I hope you can spread the word before its to late. This saying was related to the many fantasy
    and bogus buckles shown in this booklet.
    "Wir sollen auch unser Leben für die Brüder lassen" (1.Joh.3.16):
    zum Gedächtnis Wilhelm Schenk. Er starb fürs Vaterland am 13. Juni 1916

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