NSKK Kriegskraftfahrerin Badge.......repro?

[Jo Rivett]

• You are registered on the site since July 30th!
• You should add:
" Knowledge of the organization for which the badge is intended. "
Cheers

Hi Guy, and thanks for the eMail. Not that it helped me at all, just cheers for a lebenszeichen
Yes, he we go, fight in-depth research and knowledge with a number. It is always either: I have been collecting for 60 years, or i have 35,000 posts first, and not a care in the world about the actual information being presented. Why try and impregnate a "number" on me first before you offer any of your own, factual, research into this area? Why? because you have nothing else to offer that is why, and according to the Rang und Ordnung system in our hobby, i must obviously be much thicker than most here, due to the fact that i only registered on, yes, an exclamation mark will follow, 30th June!

Should i ask Ade to change my registration date to 1995? No, that would look suspicious.. how about 2010? would you feel more comfortable talking to me then?

The second point, well why? As you yourself so rightly said to me not but 10 minutes ago via eMail, the NSKK woman were NOT NSKK members, they did not have a NSKK uniform, and were, in fact, only trained by the NSKK. So how, is "knowledge about the organization" going to help me?

Please, do continue, i need all the footnotes i can get. And Guy, none of my research on these Fantasy color badges involve Wim Saris, at all. I do not "ask" certain people quick questions, then present their information/research as my own on a forum to reap a reward. The reward, my dear friend, would be all yours, and a nice $100.- contribution to this forum to boot. But instead all i see is repetitive "i am higher up in the Rang und Ordnung system than you, so you therefore do not deserve a reply from me, and the forum does not deserve a $100.- contribution."

Guy, maybe i knew long ago that the green badges were fantasy, maybe i can prove it too? and maybe all i am doing here is fishing for footnotes, to once more, expose older collectors and authors, in-print, as being; ... add any word you like here.... only time will tell

[Wilhelm Saris]

If Guy has proof about what he is intending to say, the existance of a green badge (and he claims to have knowledge about)
or any other color badge, why doesn't he show that proof.
Why is he sitting like a hen on his information? Why all his secretiveness?
Simply scan or photograph the document, of actual pre-1945 information and post it!
That's as simple as it is, or???

Enclosed the letter from Bormann, the Leiter der Partei-Kanzlei, from March 22, 1943 in relation to the training of women by the
NSKK as drivers for trucks.
Page 1, numer 1: mentions the women were not to be uniformend, not during training,
nor when really active later;
Page 2, number 3: purpose for the training is to get the licence class 3;
Page 3, number 4: the indications to be "NSKK.-Frauenfahrschule".



In this letter (not yet) anything is said about a badge or document. Nor is it said where the women should drive for!

Just some information about training and getting licenses:
In a note from the Motorgruppe Adolf Hühnlein it is mentioned females were trained for class 2 (9 at the motor-school at Regensburg)
and class 3 (321 women by units from the NSKK and 95 at the school at Regensburg). There was no mention at all for class 4.
All females trained through the NSKK Motorstandarte 95 at Coburg, as well as at Lichtenfels (about 50 women) got a licence for class 3.
They were granted and dated between June 10, 1943 and January 17, 1944.

From correspondence from the fall of 1943 to the managements from the Deutsche Reichsbahn (DRB) (Reichsbahn-Zentralamt)
at Munich the NSKK asked them to "put these females at work" with trucks for the German railroad-company:



In another letter they were said to drive trucks with 1.5 t, but no more then 3.5 t (Führerschein Klasse 3). Women with licence class 2
could serve for the DRB also (deren körperliche Konstitution geeignet ist).
The women took over jobs from men, while they were active within the Armed Forces (dringend Ersatz erforderlich ist). This was noted in a letter
from February 24, 1934 from the Reichsverkehrsministerium. In a letter from Februry 27, 1944 it was noted that 20 women served for the
Deutsche Reichsbahn, along with 8 foreigners! Another organization for which the women surely will have driven at trucks was the Deutsche Reichspost!

Now it's up too you Guymauve to show us documentation, which will shed "some light into the "Kriegskraftfahrerinnen"-darkness"!
No more "hanky-panky"! And don't come with: my English or German is not that good!

[HPL2008]

Wim Saris really shouldn't have made that comment. After all, he only joined the forum in November 2011 and, thus, by Mr. Guymauve's rationale, can't be very knowledgable. [/SARCASM]

[Jo Rivett]

Thanks for that Wim.
It is funny to read actually, but typical "golden pheasant" jargon. Especially under verwaltungsmaßnahmen, we will finance this, and pay for fuel, and pay for that... making it sound like there are no problems at all. Yet from the article in the OuE mentioned on this thread, we know what the truth was, that there were not that much fuel around at that time, driving lessons consisted of going around the block for a maximum of 30 minutes, and after 6 hours, you had your truck license. The bulk of obtaining your NSKK kriegskraftfahrerinnen license was spent learning how to fix the vehicle, and theory. Maybe in some parts of Germany it could have been a little bit better, but taking the time period mid-1943 as a start of the NSKK frauen drivers into consideration, i doubt it.

I wonder just how many of these woman actually took up this free offer of driving lessons, simply because it was free, and to be a woman with a driving license back then, was not common.

[Wilhelm Saris]

Is what is said in the OuE the truth? It is just an impression of what has happened. Maybe for the one or
the other woman yes, but in some areas there were surely differences.
I expected you would comment Jo. What did you expect to read in an "introduction"- letter from the Partei-Kanzlei?
For me it does not make sense to further discuss how and what for the training, as the thread is meant for the badge
and document. Of course there will have been serious problems that late in the war. Shortage of all what was needed!

Notes from the Motorgruppe Adolf Hühnlein mentions:
Die Frauen verlassen nach einer Ausbildungszeit von ca vier Wochen die Fahrschule. Die auszubildende Frauen sind im
allgemeinen sehr willig und sind gute Erfolge nachzuweisen.
Four weeks is somewhat more then 6 hours! Yes, there were many problems when the courses started, mainly while not
enough trucks for training were avialable, as well as mechanics and teachers (Kraftfahrlehrer) to learn the women what
was needed to know!

[Jo Rivett]

....there will have been serious problems that late in the war. Shortage of all what was needed!

Yes, i think we often loose sight of what the last few years in Germany were really like, regarding rationing. Ersatz-everything, many times not even that. And many times there was just no material available to produce many items that collectors happily call "late war items" today...

[all1knew]

Guy, maybe i knew long ago that the green badges were fantasy, maybe i can prove it too? and maybe all i am doing here is fishing for footnotes, to once more, expose older collectors and authors, in-print, as being; ... add any word you like here.... only time will tell

but there's a flip-side to that coin as this is a learning environment. Obviously members subscribed to this thread have followed closely. If you have proof about what you are intending to say, the non-existence of a green badge (and you claim to have knowledge about this) why don't you show that proof? Why are sitting like a hen on this information? Why all his secretiveness?

William Kramer

[Jo Rivett]

but there's a flip-side to that coin as this is a learning environment. Obviously members subscribed to this thread have followed closely. If you have proof about what you are intending to say, the non-existence of a green badge (and you claim to have knowledge about this) why don't you show that proof? Why are sitting like a hen on this information? Why all his secretiveness?

William Kramer

Hi William
There is something strange going on lately? Everywhere i look, i am finding posts on forums that, to me at least, seem like they were written by me but are clearly by others?
Now whether that`s a compliment or not i wouldn't know, (possibly not) but this is exactly what i would post as well, if i read my post.

Yes, there usually is a flip-side. And the learning process is an ongoing one, much like this thread. So as it progresses, as more factual evidence is shown, and it is being, we are all learning. It may, or it may not, deliver a factual mention that, although there was no uniform at all, there were still two distinct colors of badges that were to be worn. That would put me $100.- out of pocket, but, we would all have learnt just a little bit more, or not?

My argument is with the red and green, unfortunately spray painted and not hand painted as we would hope to find, M1/35 badges that are pictured in books and articles as genuine, when they are anything but. This i can indeed prove, and quite convincingly too. It could be done on a forum i guess, but the thread or post would be many pages long, or one single article/post with 60-100 images. For my salt, a detailed article like this is lost on a public forum, (any forum, not just here) and would be a waste of my time, simply because it would be in digital form only.
That may sound strange to you, but you have to understand how many still think, and how they would rather cling to a printed-version of whatever, before they would listen to anything said on a forum. I also kind of understand that mentality as well.
So i need to address a broader spectrum of collectors, and i need it to be in-print, to be criticized, quoted from, whatever really, but still there in time to come for other collectors to read.
These green badges are also a very delicate matter indeed, and a perfect example of how and why we went down the wrong road, and have become catalog-collectors. Catalog-collectors who are willing to disregard history and logic, based on a post war-published book by someone we dont know, have possibly never met, that contained a simple image accompanied with an opinion, or with lies, or with nothing.

I hope you can understand why i would rather take this most interesting topic and turn it into the first chapter of another book. As simple as it is to say that they are fake badges, is not the objective. well not mine anyway. I do have a few things to say, as i guess will soon become apparent, so in order to get the actual message across, i need to put it on trial. Only that way will the reader be left with no doubt in his mind after reading the chapter, that not only are they not genuine, but they will also see the great swindle. That takes a lot of planning and time, and deserves a fair, but conclusive trail, and not just a few forum threads on what each person things he sees, and thinks he knows.

I know, i am a strange guy... but a happy one. One of the few who really love life, and his hobby