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what about these collar patches?

Article about: At WAF about a collar-patch subject (1933 Gauleiter tab?): Bob Hritz: I just found this and believe it to be the first pattern Gauleiter collar tab (see images) The posts then were: Br. Jame

  1. #1

    Default what about these collar patches?

    At WAF about a collar-patch subject (1933 Gauleiter tab?):

    Bob Hritz: I just found this and believe it to be the first pattern Gauleiter collar tab (see images)

    what about these collar patches? what about these collar patches?

    The posts then were:
    Br. James: Perhaps the 1930 pattern Gauleiter tab? I believe that by 1933 the two-golden-oakleaves pattern was in effect - that is what is seen in the 1933 RPT journal;
    sgstandard: Angolia lists it as 1st pattern Gauleiter (1933-1934). I imagine the 1930 was the same or similar;
    Br.James: I am sure it is the 1st pattern Gauleiter tab. It’s the date I am challenging;
    sgstandard: I’m hampered by the fact that the most reference material I have for SA and political tend to begin in 1933. The Angolia book DOES list SA Gausturms from 1931 and their colors, and some info from earlier. But not much;
    squidney86: when I get home, I’ll look in Jeff Clark’s book and see what he says;
    Br. James: But I am sure Jeff will have the hard answers we are discussing here.

    The discussion took place between November 14 and November 16, but after that, all was quiet.
    Do we know now what the collar-patches really were? Or specifically what date?
    I wrote Bob Hritz for the exact color and he said it was red (the shown color is not correct, caused by photographing).

    I wonder if members from this forum can give a better and more exact answer?

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  3. #2

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    Good day Wim. I'm certain I do not have a wholly complete answer and I may be spinning my wheels here, but I have some patchwork pieces of information that may be of help? I can't find a smoking gun picture as it were showing the tab in wear with a concrete date, but the following information may help provide a more clear answer? The subsequent images were taken from multiple sites German daggers.com, a historical site on the city of Koblenz while under NSDAP control, and a unattributed illustration from Wikipedia.

    what about these collar patches?what about these collar patches?what about these collar patches?

    The Koblenz article recounts the years of the party founding within the district ca. 1925 and throughout the war. However the attached image is of Kreisleiter Robert Claussen who wears the earlier flatwire type of CT on his lapels, so I assume the picture is ca. 31-34' ; as he was appointed city councilor in 34. So default by association these earlier tabs were worn within that timeframe potentially up until 34 I speculate.

    https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Claussen

    Die Stadtverwaltung Koblenz im Nationalsozialismus

  4. #3

    Default

    Thanks Brian,

    I am aware of writings like this. And also am aware of the mentioned dates
    in these publications.

    According to my information we practically can standardize all of this to
    specific dates of the first official mentioning and then the eventual change.
    You can pin down it to about ten months (July 1932 op through May 1933).

    what about these collar patches?

    Photo from volume 3 of the headgear-series. The Gardelitze was first
    officially mentioned. This cord-system was not ever covered in uniform-
    regulations and may pre-date the Litze or is simply a manufacturers-
    variation.

    There is always an eventual BUT. This is caused by the "provisional" wearing
    of new insignia. And by that it is often difficult to say: yes or no or maybe!
    Provisional wearing makes this hobby so difficult

    The shown colored plate from post 2 with the figure is from "Uniformfibel"
    from December 1933, but it was in some ways re-constructed partly.
    "Uniformfibel" does show the two oak-leaves for Reichsorganisationsleiter,
    but this was actually introduced in August 2, 1932 (upon a crimson backing).
    I do
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 11-23-2017 at 05:54 PM.

  5. #4

    Default

    For a forum-friend I made a survey, the development for the political leaders
    ranking system from 1931 through 1936. Some passages of the survey I will
    not withhold to WRF members. The complete survey is too long to post, sorry!

    With the “Entwurf der Dienst-Vorschrift der PO” from July 15, 1932 a new system was planned and came in force.
    The difference between SA and PO was now an official fact. All former orders were suspended. The Landes- and
    Reichs-Inspektionen had to confirm with the date October 1, 1932 if the regulation was to be agreed or where
    and when changes had to be made.
    With this regulation (pages 50 through 55) collar-patches with indications were a fact (there were other indications
    for specific ranks as well, as for example: various forms of chevrons for the left lower arm, a worn diamond in a
    specific form for the left upper arm or the so-called Verdienstabzeichen, which was a small piece of black cloth with
    a year-indication. These are not included here).

    what about these collar patches?

    Before July 1932 political leaders were recognizable by a number of armbands with stripes, eventually with a rosette.
    The “Dienstbuch der NSDAP” from March 1932 (which in fact was valid since 1931)
    mentions the worn ranking-insignia, shown at the armband (see image).

    what about these collar patches? what about these collar patches?

    A Gauleiter did wear a swastika armband with two 10.0 mm silver stripes, but no rosette

    With the regulation from July 15, 1932 the sign of recognition for a Gauleiter changed.
    Gauleiter: one golden Gardelitze upon a red collar-patch.

    what about these collar patches?

    what about these collar patches?

    The further development:
    In the course of late spring 1932 they started with a re-organization of the PO, for example the Organisationsleitung I and II
    were combined into the Reichsorganisationsleitung. With an order from August 2, 1932 the Reichsorganisationsleiter was
    allowed to wear two golden oak-leaves upon a crimson backing collar-patch.
    This was published in the Verordnungsblatt der Reichsleitung der NSDAP (further as Vbl.), nr.2 from August 15, 1932:
    auf dem Hemdkragen auf karmesinrotem Grund zwei goldene Eichenlaub. The July 1932-regulation was largely a fact in
    October of that year.

    Maybe an interesting fact should be noted, especially for collectors. With an announcement of November 15, 1932
    (Vbl. 35 - November 30, 1932) it was mentioned that various Amtswalterabzeichen were being faked. The publication
    literally says: various insignia are already being reproduced by dealers and by this gefälscht. Yes, you read this well:
    faked in 1932.
    I can tell about numerous publications about faking material throught the years. And so I would say:
    who cares what you have. It might be an old pre-1945 fake!

    With an order from Ley from May 12, 1933 (Vbl.47 - from May 15, 1933) a Gauleiter were allowed to wear the ranking-insignia
    for the Reichsinspekteur (two golden Gardelitzen).
    With an order from June 2, 1933 (Vbl.48 - May 31, 1933) the name “Amtsleiter der NSDAP” was changed into “Reichsleiter
    and did then form the Oberste Reichsleitung.

    With an order from September 28, 1933 one can say the uniform and the ranking-system were final (this was after the RPT -
    Anordnung Vbl.57 - from October 15, 1933**). With a decree from January 20, 1934 (Vbl.64 - from January 31, 1934.
    Pages 141 and 142: Der Dienstanzug der PO-Leiter) Hitler sanctioned the “final” PO uniform. Wearing was granted.
    The ranking system for a Gauleiter was as:

    Gauleitung:
    Gauleiter (red collar-patches with double embroidered oak-leaf).

    what about these collar patches? what about these collar patches?

    ** here one should note that it is seen that during the Reichsparteitag from 1933
    Gauleiter already did wear the system, which became a true fact in early 1934.
    With this one can see how difficult it is to sometimes date a photograph.

    Note that the Gardelitzen had to be embroidered. This was specifically mentioned. With an April 13, 1934 order from Ley
    it was noted what were old ranking-insignia. All of this had to be removed. For the time being it was allowed to wear the old
    uniform avoid of the new ranking-system. This was also valid for the new uniform (Vbl.70 - from end of April 1934: 5/34,
    Veraltete Rangabzeichen).

    From this moment on - 1936 - most of it was arranged with the “Organisationsbuch der NSDAP” and a period of “rest”,
    related to the uniform, set in! 1939 brought news when a new uniform was introduced with order 9/39 from April 2, 1939
    and the system of ranking insignia changed with that (Dienstrang- und Dienststellung – rank by collar-patches and function
    by the new form of armbands:
    Vbl. 193 – from the end of May 1939: Hitler-order 8/39), also Unterrichtstafel der NSDAP, Nr.3 from
    the Reichsorganisationsleiter der NSDAP – Hauptorganisationsamt and the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP from 1940, page 21
    as well as pages 27a through 27c and plates 18 through 24. The new system for rank and function was a fact per June 1, 1939
    (Vbl. – 194 from mid-June 1939).

    what about these collar patches?

    Maybe this development is of some help, but there is much more to tell,
    due to the forming of new functions between 1934 and 1936!
    Last edited by Wilhelm Saris; 11-24-2017 at 02:18 PM.

  6. #5

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    Awesome explanation Wim. Thanks once more for taking the time to share your wealth of knowledge and resources! Kindest regards.

    Brian

  7. #6

    Default

    Here is a picture I took sometime last year from Das Buch der N.S.D.A.P., printed in 1933 if I recall correctly. I do not have the book anymore, else I would retake the picture using my new digital camera, so please forgive the fact that my image is slightly out of focus. In line with what Mr. Saris has already stated, the Gauleiter's Dienstrangabzeichen featured a simple Goldlitze on a bright-red (back)ground.


    what about these collar patches?

    what about these collar patches?

  8. #7

    Default

    Apologies for double posting, however the resolution of my above image was not uploaded to its proper resolution, and I do not seem to have the ability to edit my post. (Perhaps I may not be able to see it, as some of the options, such as "Quote", and "Multi-Quote" are in a subdued font-colour. None the less, I've uploaded the image to my Flickr where the pages are shown in 1600×1200 resolution.

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4210/3...f7be9e01_h.jpg

  9. #8
    ?

    Default

    Hello,
    what about this tab? Any ideas?
    Best regards, Thomas
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture what about these collar patches?  

  10. #9
    ?

    Default

    back side:
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture what about these collar patches?  

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