Can the dismantling of Third Reich artifacts for research purposes be justified?

[StuG III]

It is a shame indeed, but without going the extra mile how are we to arm ourselves with the necessary knowledge needed to determine good from bad?

Tom

[Jerry B]

The road that I excavated actually runs past my house and is of great interest to me and is as much an artifact as a medal or award or any other object created by people and to many a Roman road of circa 2000 years age would be considered of far greater importance than a 70 year old medal. The road has a name and in its own way is unique and the rediscovery of part of its lost route is of great importance, but as I posted the destruction of a small section in the search of knowledge is acceptable.

The use of the term artifact for any object created by humans is an archaeological term and as an archaeologist I use the term to describe all objects, especially when engaged in this sort of academic debate.

I have no ax to grind in this matter and everyone is entitled to their opinion and all viewpoints are valid and carry equal weight IMHO

I do not think nor did I expect there to be a consensus on this matter and even among my professional peers disputes can arise and tempers flare, such is human nature but hopefully we can raise ourselves above this and at least agree to disagree without recourse to insults and slighting others opinions or viewpoints.

Perhaps this thread is coming to its end.

[Mark K]

Well said Jerry and a most interesting thread it had been and there are some good view points on both sides of this discussion.

Regards Mark K

[Wagriff]

Ritter crosses, I shouldn't need to say, are made in several pieces and by several companies. Each with their own unique eccentricities and differences in manufacture. To discover the minute details in these differences, it would help greatly to deconstruct them. Popping them under a scope is not always enough-what is beneath the silver rims? How were they assembled? What types of solder was used?, etc etc. So, no-it is,indeed, relevant to the subject of disassembling badges to discover their inner secrets that are not obvious to the outside. There has been no "hijacking of the thread" here, and it isn't actually necessary to insinuate an unspoken insult (hijack, rabble, sad statement?). I have been nothing but civil and polite in this thread and I can only ask that the same be returned in any replies. The initial question posed was "Can dismantling Third Reich artifacts for research purposes be justified?", and I cannot see where my asking the questions concerning dismantling Ritter Crosses and other awards has "hijacked" this thread. Is this not the purpose of the initial question-to garner collectors reactions and thoughts on dismantling awards?

[Larry C]

Without doctors ....diseases and illnesses would never be cured. Dissecting a minority amount always benefits the majority. JM 2 cents Regards Larry

[Wagriff]

Thanks Davejb. Lets continue then
And lets continue with the subject of "destroying" expensive items vs. cheap-o`s or even fakes.
The Tears before bedtime remark is getting old and boring, and in fact is incorrect. Tears 24-7 is more apt.
When you talk of expensive, you kind of automatically instill a feeling of authenticity into the item without attempting to look deeper. Whether we want to or not, this is the way it is.

"Expensive" because dealers and authors have been brainwashing you into believing that what they are offering you, or what they have shown in-print, is a rare & genuine item?
Like the Hitlerjugend Ehrenabzeichen with an oak leaf boarder maybe? That dealers like Weitze, Winkler etc etc, always offer for sale for a few thousand €uro a time? I believe that Winker only wants around €1000.- per piece for his, or thereabouts. Other dealers that are not that well known, offer the identical badges for much less, around 25-50 €uros.

Never mind that, and never mind that they fail a forensic test hands down on all counts, when you take it apart, to see how it was constructed, we find that the roundel was attached with - super glue

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Do you see the conflict? What is expensive to people like Helmut Weitze and Kia Winkler, as well as those who buy these from them, is not expensive to me, all it is, is a poorly made fake badge, with a poorly made fake HJ diamond super glued in the middle. And if i had not invested in one of these, and "destroyed it", we would not have known that the parts were glue together So there you go. Potentially this post, my breaking a badge that dealers are telling us is rare and worth a lot, might save someone a few thousand €uro

Mein word zum Sonntag: You cant make a cake without breaking a few eggs. Well not the cake i am making anyway.

Very interesting, for sure! I guess the next logical question would be, Were there Real HJ gold badges? And how do you tell if the next one that you examine is genuine? You popped off the diamond and found the badge you had was glued together-so, if there was no way to know until you removed the diamond, how is anyone else to know what badge is genuine and which is not? The same would hold true if you had removed the diamond and found it to be a Genuine badge. Not to be at all insulting,as I'm not Intending to be, but what have you (and subsequently the rest of the hobby) learned by breaking up this fake badge? Is there someway now to tell if the badge a person is looking at is a glued fake or a genuine affixed diamond?

[Jo Rivett]

but as I posted the destruction of a small section in the search of knowledge is acceptable.

Agreed, and factual hands-on info gained in this manner, is an absolute necessity as a solid base for debate on questions pertaining to the structure/item by interested parties, indeed as a solid and factually correct basis for any further research/debate/book/discussion...
If you ignore the basics, and by basics i mean "How was it made", and base a debate on assumption, or incomplete facts, then logically nothing fruitful will ever come of that debate.
We have almost 70 years of books, discussions and theories from people who have ignored the fundamentals, the hands-on research. And almost 70 years of collectors who have sat with their hands folded. It is slowly starting to change though, and i am glad that i can be apart of that change.

[HJ-Collector]

Cloth is much different and can be authenticated with test and knowledge rather than destruction.

really? could you please elaborate on that one then?

please dont say burn or black light test...

[Allegra]

Certainly an interesting thread and one that I have to admit to be sitting on the fence.

I can see both sides of the argument and am not ambivalent, merely not entirely sure.

I will however say Jo, that your forays into the forum are always interesting - and for that I have to thank you.

On a side note: while I see the relevance of the new avatar (at least I think I do) I kinda liked the previous one a little better.

Cheers
Tim

[StefanM]

I don't collect TR awards, medals or badges etc but one thing I can say for sure is that if I did then I would be extremely grateful that Jo has actually gone to all the trouble (and expense) of taking these objects apart to look at them in such detail and published his findings so that I would not have to do the same to know if the object of my desire was genuine or not.

....I wish someone would do the same for printed paper documents!