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Deutsches Kreuz/German Cross in gold cloth - opinions?

Article about: I've had quite a few of these in Army Luftwaffe and KM backings, and always felt comfortable with what to look for, however, this one has me wondering, there are a few "pointers" a

  1. #1

    Default Deutsches Kreuz/German Cross in gold cloth - opinions?

    I've had quite a few of these in Army Luftwaffe and KM backings, and always felt comfortable with what to look for, however, this one has me wondering, there are a few "pointers" as to why I don't like it, the grey stitching is too tight, there is no "flaw" on the 9 the backing material which the swastika sits on looks weird, the red cotton is off colour, however the material is correct, the silver thread around the outside is held on correctly it compares differently to others I have, opinions are as always divided.

    A dealer well known for his badges liked it, another did not I have the book, and can't find an exact match, there are numerous variations I know.........it has been suggested that this is a zimmermann wreath, but am I being paranoid? or is it ok.

    ANY opinions would be welcome, to try and put this one to bed
    Cheers
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  3. #2

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    Hello John,
    apart from the differences that you point out I think it is a good cross.
    The swastika backing looks just fine to me.
    Pictured below are a couple of mine and the backing looks identical.

    I don't think I would be worried too much about the red thread


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    All the best
    Doug

  4. #3

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    Another couple similar to yours:

    Tight grey stitching

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  5. #4

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    Thanks for that doug..... I am paranoid.....but the second lot you show are more or less identical. ...

  6. #5

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    It looks O.K. to me too, a type 1 example in my opinion, but for me to be 100% certain a much better photo of the date is required before I give it a definitive

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  7. #6

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    Quote by big ned View Post
    It looks O.K. to me too, a type 1 example in my opinion, but for me to be 100% certain a much better photo of the date is required before I give it a definitive

    Regards, Ned.
    I'll take some tomorrow buddy. Just on my way out for the evening 😅

  8. #7

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    Couple more of the date, quite difficult to photograph, and I can't find my micro camera
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  9. #8

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    As Ned pointed out earlier John, these crosses with the tight thread and the date with no flaw seem to be classified as a type 1.

    Doing some research in to these I am fairly sure that it is only the Juncker wreaths that show the '9' flaw.
    The one without the flaw is a zimmermann or a different Juncker type?

    It also seems that there were half a dozen makers all with their own construction techniques....Boo Hoo looks like I will have to add more to my collection.
    I thought I had them all.

    Good catch

    All the best
    Doug

  10. #9

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    Quote by John Brandon View Post
    Couple more of the date, quite difficult to photograph, and I can't find my micro camera
    Hi Jonno,

    Pic's are still not the best, but I have a question regarding the number of notches below the date. Are there 9 or 13? I'm counting 9 which is fine for early metal version metal Juncker DK's, but the later ones had 13 notches, and this is the design that as far as is known was used for ALL cloth DK's. The only difference in construction being that the cloth version was made of cupal or brass whereas the metal version was always tombak. The cloth version was fitted with prongs as averse to the metal version which had solid studs for fitting to the rivets on the reverse of the starburst plate.

    As far as I know, no cloth badge has been yet found with the '9 notch' date shield so although not an impossibility I guess, it needs further investigation. Of course with the pictures supplied I may have miscounted and all is well, but as a dealer you above all know the devil is in the detail. Everything else in it's construction looks absolutely correct, so a bit of a conundrum if there are only 9 notches......

    Quote by Saladin View Post
    As Ned pointed out earlier John, these crosses with the tight thread and the date with no flaw seem to be classified as a type 1.

    Doing some research in to these I am fairly sure that it is only the Juncker wreaths that show the '9' flaw.
    The one without the flaw is a zimmermann or a different Juncker type?

    It also seems that there were half a dozen makers all with their own construction techniques....Boo Hoo looks like I will have to add more to my collection.
    I thought I had them all.

    Good catch

    All the best
    Doug
    Hi Doug,

    Only a Juncker designed wreath was ever used as far as is currently known. Juncker produced 2 types for the metal cross as I mentioned above, and ONLY the 2nd design type with 13 notches below the date was used for the cloth version as far as is known. All the cloth versions have the '9' flaw, which is actually a double flaw. They can vary from being very noticeable to barely visible depending on the strike, but are there. There is a flaw on the top of the '9' and another on the right hand side that's in the same position as that found on the Zimmermann made wreath but is actually a different shape to that one.

    This second flaw may result in the erroneous suggestion that Zimmermann wreaths were sometimes used for cloth DK's, and it certainly gained strength after this was stated by Klaus Patzwall and Veit Scherzer in their book Das Deutsche Kreuz 1941-1945: Volume 1. This has since been dismissed as a fact in today's collecting circles as far as I'm aware, and I've certainly never seen a Zimmermann wreath on a geunuine cloth DK.

    All very complicated and involved, but it's these details that matter....

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  11. #10

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    I'm really struggling to tke a decent picture of this one, It's not like I haven't got a decent camera! EOS 50D of all things!!! I have "lost" my little USB micro camera, so this is the best I can do.

    Point of interest Ned me old beaut....it has 8 notches. This was one of the first things that I looked at expecting to see 13 and not even seeing 9???? BUT if it is a fake, which I do believe it is, and have done all along, it is one that has kept people saying " well it could be........or could not. Malcolm B of M&T, who I have great respect for, said it was ok. he thought that it was a zimmerman wreath, Yes Ned, I am a dealer, and I can't get it right all of the time, but before I sell anything that has me doubting I always put it up for review.

    Am I paranoid? ......you bet!!
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