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Flotten-Kriegsabzeichen Fake for comments

Article about: Appears to have characteristics of an original RS&S eg.,bursting breast,deck points and middle canon and reasonable hardware but in the wrong metal I.e., not zinc.???Cast fake? Comments.

  1. #1
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    Default Flotten-Kriegsabzeichen Fake for comments

    Appears to have characteristics of an original RS&S eg.,bursting breast,deck points and middle canon and reasonable hardware but in the wrong metal I.e., not zinc.???Cast fake? Comments.
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  3. #2
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    Obverse.
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  4. #3

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    Hi Snoman, I think you are right to call this as a fake, the RS&S awards I have seen have a ball hinge and a flat metal catch. This one is not a ball hinge and has a round wire catch. Also the originals of this maker that I have personally seen have a flat "tapered" pin and not a wire one. Leon.
    "Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut." Ernest Hemingway

  5. #4

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    have you noticed that the ship is off centre ?.

  6. #5

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    I'm gonna stick my neck out here and say I like it.

    I know that they had trouble with the crimping method of the catch later on, and you can find badges with both flatwire and roundwire catches that are nicely soldered on as seen above. The ball hinge appears a bit off, but I think it's been filed down to allow the fitting of a roundwire pin AS A 'FIELD' (or at sea???) REPAIR AFTER THE BADGE LEFT THE FACTORY, as it appears to be exceptionally fat even for one of the later factory fitted pins they utilised, also roundwire, and has needed major 'surgery' to both it and the hinge to make it work.

    I like the detail on the badge front and reverse, where I think I can see a couple of flaws that are known on original badges by RS&S as well as some more unique design features missed by the fakers. I think this type is referred to as the "Type 4" by collectors of KM badges.

    Still, that's just my opinion, better wait for Martin or others more in the know.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  7. #6

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    Interesting Ned, I never gave it a second thought that the hardware may be messed with to such an extent that the ball hinge was no longer a ball! I do confess however that I did not even look at the obverse as I disliked the reverse so much! Personally I still am not that keen on it, even if it turns out to be original(and the metal does look odd), there are much nicer RS&S badges out there, here's one for £425!! Leon.Click image for larger version. 

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    "Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut." Ernest Hemingway

  8. #7

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    Ned has put into words what I was thinking. so for me its good.

  9. #8

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    This is an odd one.

    The obverse detail looks pretty good but that basemetal colour on the reverse is throwing me off,maybe the lighting ??

    I'm inclined to think that it could be a good late war example that has had some repair work on the reverse.

    As Ned mentiond these RS&S fleet badges can be found with both a wide tapered pin and a round wire needle type pin,although i think the pin on this badge has been replaced.

    Here are four types of reverse set ups that can be seen on original RS&S's.

    Again,as Ned mentioned,the above badge is very similar to the type four seen here.
    Cheers,Martin.
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  10. #9

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    Hi Martin,

    Thanks for your input on this, you've put it better than I could, but we're on the same lines I think!

    Regarding the strange appearance of the reverse side, I noticed that the gilding on the front is the same colour and the area around the swastika shows where it was applied upto the point of the top of the superstructure. Could it be that for some reason the gilding was applied over the entire reverse side?

    I have never seen this, but wondered in all your time collecting KM badges if you have ever come across this?

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  11. #10
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    Hi Guys,

    I'm afraid I have to disagree and say this is unequivocally a cast fake.

    Yes, the obverse is a decent casting, but original R.S.&S. Fleet badges have exceptionally fine detail so even the casting doesn't look too bad. But the reverse tells the story. Wrong base metal, poor detail and pitting. Look at the trimming outlines of the margins compared with the original -- it couldn't imitate the complex digitations of the original. Look at the cutouts under the secondary armament. Notice the gentle cupping of the wreath which is a casting effect.

    The catch is soldered onto the casting outline of the crimp base. The distorted ball hinge could possibly be part of the casting - it's missing the gap between the ball hinge and the surrounding crimp.

    As an aside, the four "variations" shown in the image posted by Martin, in my opinion, really only shows two variations -- the top two. The others are simply catch replacements after the crimped catch failed - possibly period repairs.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
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