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Flugzeugführerabzeichen C.E Juncker Aluminium

Article about: Hi, could you please give me your views about this pilot´s badge?, thanks, Juan

  1. #11

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    Hi Joe, I have seen your message about the pin that is not right and the hand, could you please get back to me with your views?, thanks, Juan
    Quote by jamoros View Post
    That is great, I am learning every day and today I definetely did that, thanks a lot for that. Now I have made an offer to the seller and see what happens, will let you know guys the outcome of all this, best regards, Juan

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  3. #12

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    Hi Juan,

    had yesterday another look on the badge and i noticed, that the pin is sharpened. Mostly the pins are blunt at the J1 Pilot badges. If nothing must mean negative with the pin....for example the J2 para badges from Juncker was coming with both Kind of pins (sharpened and blunt). It is only a point i have noticed later yesterday.

    The second point i have noticed later is the swastika. The edges of the swastika are looking squalidly, especially the lower cross arm. There are some marks, but could be come from the catch repair. Mostly the swastika had a good to see hand finishing too on Juncker badges. The edges are looking a bit sharp based on the pics.

    What do you mean guys?

    Joe

  4. #13

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    Thanks Joe, will wait and see what the other guys have got to say about this, many thanks, Juan

  5. #14

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    Hi guys, I attach you more pictures, thanks, Juan
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  6. #15

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    Hello Juan,
    I have read Joe's concerns but I am quite sure that they are nothing to worry about.
    The type J1 Juncker badges do have a straight cut pin but the close up the you supplied makes me think that this has been sharpened by hand so I personally don't have a problem with this.
    The scars and dings that are quite noticeable on the backside of the lower arm of the swastika look as though there has been an overly enthusiastic repair job on the hook and a cleaning up of the area. If you look at the bottom of the wreath on the inner side it looks as though there may still be some residue of the repair material stuck to it.. So again not of any particular concern to me.

    I do note there is a fracture at the base of the wing on the right hand wing (when viewed from the front) which I don't think is a casting flaw but more something to do with the reason the corresponding rivet repair.
    If you also look at the feathers on the same wing you will notice a flattening which I believe is due to the rivet repair

    I still like it and at the sort of money you negotiated it was a bargain no matter what faults it has.

    Doug

  7. #16

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    Quote by Kradmelder View Post
    Hi Juan,

    had yesterday another look on the badge and i noticed, that the pin is sharpened. Mostly the pins are blunt at the J1 Pilot badges. If nothing must mean negative with the pin....for example the J2 para badges from Juncker was coming with both Kind of pins (sharpened and blunt). It is only a point i have noticed later yesterday.

    The second point i have noticed later is the swastika. The edges of the swastika are looking squalidly, especially the lower cross arm. There are some marks, but could be come from the catch repair. Mostly the swastika had a good to see hand finishing too on Juncker badges. The edges are looking a bit sharp based on the pics.

    What do you mean guys?

    Joe
    Hi Joe,

    You raise some good points that are very valid. I have been looking at this one for a couple of days, and whilst not having ever handled a J1 orJ2 Aluminium Juncker PO badge I have been able to study a few on the net that are both good and bad. I come down to the opinion that this is a genuine badge with a repaired/replaced catch. The cut outs on the eagle and the eagles definition is, I think, of the same quality as known originals. So to in my opinion is the wreath, I find that it's details match well compared to all the fakes I looked at that had noticeable variations when compared side by side.

    The concerns you raise regarding the appearance of the swastika are understandable. Looking from the rear it does appear that the arms are a little "off" compared to some other badges, but these were all hand filed and it's noticeable looking at other originals that the finish is often rather varied due to this. The sharpened pin I can't explain. I haven't found an example of a J1 with one, but there are J3 buntmetal and J4 zinc PO badges by Junker that do have them, and therefore it is possible that this is a variant type not often found, or was possibly sharpened when the catch was fixed, again this is only my opinion.

    These are just some of my thoughts, but on the whole I would like to give the badge a tentative thumbs up.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  8. #17

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    Quote by Saladin View Post
    Hello Juan,
    I have read Joe's concerns but I am quite sure that they are nothing to worry about.
    The type J1 Juncker badges do have a straight cut pin but the close up the you supplied makes me think that this has been sharpened by hand so I personally don't have a problem with this.
    The scars and dings that are quite noticeable on the backside of the lower arm of the swastika look as though there has been an overly enthusiastic repair job on the hook and a cleaning up of the area. If you look at the bottom of the wreath on the inner side it looks as though there may still be some residue of the repair material stuck to it.. So again not of any particular concern to me.

    I do note there is a fracture at the base of the wing on the right hand wing (when viewed from the front) which I don't think is a casting flaw but more something to do with the reason the corresponding rivet repair.
    If you also look at the feathers on the same wing you will notice a flattening which I believe is due to the rivet repair

    I still like it and at the sort of money you negotiated it was a bargain no matter what faults it has.

    Doug
    Excellent observations Doug, they make perfect sense! One thing regarding the sharpening of the pin that may be of interest is that I recall reading somewhere that when the pins on Juncker badges were sharpened, it was always done longitudinally where the pin was facing the grinding wheel (like this ^) rather than being ground across the wheel (like this >). Therefore the direction of the grinding marks may give the answer to this conundrum.

    I realise this can only checked when the badge is in hand, but it may help answer the question as to if it's a factory sharpened pin or a later one done when the badge was repaired. When you look at all the details, the re soldered/replaced catch, the rivet tightening and the possible re filing of the swastika to remove excess solder spill, it make sense that it could have been sharpened as part of the comprehensive overhaul of the badge by the owner or whoever undertook it.

    All in all a badge that's engendered a stimulating variety of opinions, this is a good thread!

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  9. #18

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    Regards, Juan
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  10. #19

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    [QUOTE=big ned;1432743]Excellent observations Doug, they make perfect sense! One thing regarding the sharpening of the pin that may be of interest is that I recall reading somewhere that when the pins on Juncker badges were sharpened, it was always done longitudinally where the pin was facing the grinding wheel (like this ^) rather than being ground across the wheel (like this >). Therefore the direction of the grinding marks may give the answer to this conundrum.

    QUOTE]

    I do agree with observations about the sharpening of the pin Ned.
    I have looked quite closely at the end of the pin and came to the conclusion that the pin was sharpened by a hand file from the blunt end backwards towards the hinge so as not to reduce the length of the pin. Now that you have pointed it out it could have been done on an oilstone which would have produced near exact same result.

    The whole quality of the badge just shouts original and although it has had numerous repairs carried out it will be a great addition to any collection.

    Just as a historical note.
    Many of the badges that were pinned to the tunic were popped through cotton loops that had been sewn to the outside of the jacket so as to prevent having to pierce the jacket continually.
    From my own experience sometimes these loops failed so I went down the route of having tiny holes embroidered round the edges as reinforcement in addition to the oversewn loops.
    Having a pointy pin certainly would have aided the positioning of these badges on to the tunic.

    I wonder if this is the same route the original badge owner went down after his hook failed? We'll never know

    All the best
    Doug

  11. #20

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    Thank you friends for your additional and detailed description.

    Regarding the pin: Was a idea too from me, that the pin was sharpened possibly by the holder self. I couldn´t find too no J1 with a sharpened pin Ned. But it´s also possible that Juncker used in parts also sharpened pins for the J1 badges. Hand inspection will tell more as Ned pointed out.

    Maybe i am sometimes a bit to sceptical. I like the badge also....

    Kind Regards
    Joe

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