Grossmann & Co. // Two Ostmedaillen variants ??

[Sveimhugi]

Hello gents

I really need some help on this or second opinions.
Now I know the Ostmedaille is not the most popular subject, but I try anyway

I noticed a while back the 11 Grossmann & Co. had 2 variants of the Ostmedaille. Its the only manufacturer that I know of that has 2
so very different designs.
For this thread I named one "variant: standard" (its the one that is listed, decriped and pictured in Saschas W. book on the Ostmedaille).
The other I named "variant: Deumer".

The diference between those 2 are very obvious, the size, helm, size in lettering, broad rim, leaves and berries on the back, different syle maker mark and more..

The design of "variant: Deumer" is very close to (suprise suprise) Wilhelm Deumers design of the Ostmedaille. But bedtween them
(variant: Deumer and actuall Wilhelm Deumer) are also minor diferences, like the leaves
on backside, but beside that they are very very alike.

Can somebody help me out what happened here hehe ? Is it common that manufactures had 2 different designs of the same award (beside Ostmdaillen) ?
Could it be that Grossmann bought the tools or surplus stock from Deumer ? (the are not really stationed side by side).
Or am I seeing this all totaly wrong ?

Would love to hear you opinions on this one

Thank you and cheers from Iceland
Sindri

[Stewy S]

Hi Sindri, yes it's not uncommon to have different variants to one maker. ISA's PKA's etc. They often redesigned their dies, whether it be from a tombak orientated machine to a zinc die stamp. My #11 (Deumer) is the second type you posted. Hope that helps a bit my friend. Stewy

[Sveimhugi]

Hi Sindri, yes it's not uncommon to have different variants to one maker. ISA's PKA's etc. They often redesigned their dies, whether it be from a tombak orientated machine to a zinc die stamp. My #11 (Deumer) is the second type you posted. Hope that helps a bit my friend. Stewy

Hi Stewy!

Thanks for your answer
Aha.. interesting, did they also make such big changes? Seems more hassle to me then just lighter alterations.

[Stewy S]

All dies varied & had to be adjusted to suit. When hollow awards were outlawed in '42. They would've had to redesign dies to stamp massive (solid) awards. If you read some of Fischer's research into ISA's you'll see how many "types" several makers have through the course of the war. Your understanding of Ost's is second to none mate. I also need to contact Dietrich to find out when the English version of the Ost book comes out. Stewy

[Combat Boots]

Very nice variation comparison photos. On the reverse there is a huge difference in the border band width of the second two. Nice work! Bob

[Sveimhugi]

All dies varied & had to be adjusted to suit. When hollow awards were outlawed in '42. They would've had to redesign dies to stamp massive (solid) awards. If you read some of Fischer's research into ISA's you'll see how many "types" several makers have through the course of the war. Your understanding of Ost's is second to none mate. I also need to contact Dietrich to find out when the English version of the Ost book comes out. Stewy

Exellent! Thank you, dont know much about ISAs, so had do idea of the Hollowed being outlawed, I will find his threads and learn more about the Manufacturing process of the ISAs, much can prob be fit the process of the OM

Hehe yes, its always "next year", but the English version never comes out though, luckely I speak German so the book is great for me
Well while you have him on the line, pls tell him I would like to see some variants out of the book, witch are errors IMO, and some new ones in that were not covered in the old one + allot of pouch variations.

Thanks again Stewy (Y)

[Sveimhugi]

Very nice variation comparison photos. On the reverse there is a huge difference in the border band width of the second two. Nice work! Bob

Thanks, yes there is, and the last two are almost the same design, but one is marked 11 and the other one 3, drives me nuts.

[Stewy S]

Exellent! Thank you, dont know much about ISAs, so had do idea of the Hollowed being outlawed, I will find his threads and learn more about the Manufacturing process of the ISAs, much can prob be fit the process of the OM

Hehe yes, its always "next year", but the English version never comes out though, luckely I speak German so the book is great for me
Well while you have him on the line, pls tell him I would like to see some variants out of the book, witch are errors IMO, and some new ones in that were not covered in the old one + allot of pouch variations.

Thanks again Stewy (Y)

. Stewy

[spunkmaja]

Hi Sindri,

Very interesting. I have not seen this OM11 mark (Deumer design) on any OM before. What actually strikes me is that the standard OM11 mark is not what you normally would expect on a Grossmann medal.

Attached are the 11 marks for EK2, KVK2 without swords and KVK2 with swords:



But no doubt there are two different design variations for the OM11 medals. So the question is why? The odd bird in this is actually the standard OM11 design since the maker mark is so different from what you normally see on Grossmann medals. Maybe this was made by someone else on behalf of Grossmann? Also, some firms went out of business and the leftover stock, dies etc. where purchased by another firm. I do not know if there is that kind of relation between Grossmann-Deumer? I love a good mystery.

Yes, the OM11 (Deumer design) are very alike the OM3 W. Deumer design. It is hard to tell if they are a 100% match since after a while you see what you want to see.


/Jonas

[Sveimhugi]

Hi Sindri,

Very interesting. I have not seen this OM11 mark (Deumer design) on any OM before. What actually strikes me is that the standard OM11 mark is not what you normally would expect on a Grossmann medal.

Attached are the 11 marks for EK2, KVK2 without swords and KVK2 with swords:



But no doubt there are two different design variations for the OM11 medals. So the question is why? The odd bird in this is actually the standard OM11 design since the maker mark is so different from what you normally see on Grossmann medals. Maybe this was made by someone else on behalf of Grossmann? Also, some firms went out of business and the leftover stock, dies etc. where purchased by another firm. I do not know if there is that kind of relation between Grossmann-Deumer? I love a good mystery.

Yes, the OM11 (Deumer design) are very alike the OM3 W. Deumer design. It is hard to tell if they are a 100% match since after a while you see what you want to see.


/Jonas

Hi Jonas

Yes that is true, the "odd" looking maker mark is actually the one thats totally different from the rest, the one witch I called "standard" one, witch is also in the book and more common I find (although scarce).
It could also be like you suggested that these OMs with that type of MM where produced for Grossmann by another maker, since it very wierd fro Grossmann the change the MM just for the OM. I could try to find a match for the Medaille, but as we know that is not always easy and takes time

The OM3 Wilhelm Deumer is such a unique OM design (smaller than the others, very round helmet and that broad rim) that I think it must be relanted, either produced for Grossmann made by Deumer (although Deumer used the same style in MM as Grossmann, would not explain the different MM), leftover/surplus stock from Deumer, bought dies/tools from Deumer.
The only thing I that bugs me a little (although slight variations are common with the OMs) is the leaves on the backside, on the sword for example that are so very different

And yes its true, haha after a while you start see what you want to see, thats why I value your "fresh" opinions

I just check out me OM3s Wilhelm Deumer again, I had one witch I thought was a unmarked OM3 Wilhelm Deumer, I looked at it more closely and just noticed a very faint 11!
The leaves are the same as on the one I posted earlier, and again slightly different from the OM3 Wilhelm Deumer one.
I attached pics.

But I think you are right, it will prob remain a Mystery