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Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

Article about: Just a small make real or fake

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    "With regard to the FLL badge, am I correct in thinking they were always unmarked?"


    Hi Adrian,

    Yes, alway unmarked. The FLL attribution is based upon the hardware characteristics relative to the Luftwaffe badges and CCCs. As a group the FLL-attributed Minesweepers are similar in rarity to the Becos but the aluminum variants are rarer still.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

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  3. #12
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    Thanks Norm. Did Fll Minesweeper badges only come with one type of hinge? I know their Luftwaffe badges had at least two different variations on a hinge block and wondered in their Minesweepers can be found with a variety.

    Mind you, considering the rarity, I doubt two nave ever been seen........

  4. #13
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    "Did Fll Minesweeper badges only come with one type of hinge?"

    Hi Adrian,

    One type of hinge but in two different orientations -- it can be mounted flat or vertically as seen here. (The beauty with the darkened reverse was posted previously by "Liquidmetall" on WAF here: New Minesweeper Badge - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums )

    Sorry, I guess we're getting a little off the topic of the Beco...;-)

    Cheers,
    ---Norm
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    Best regards,
    ---Norm

  5. #14
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    The FLL design is actually one of the better looking pieces. I like the look of it.

    Going back to the Beco, is there any reason/timeline for the different placing of the makers marks? They can be found on the bottom left of the reverse or the waterspout.

  6. #15
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    "Going back to the Beco, is there any reason/timeline for the different placing of the makers marks? They can be found on the bottom left of the reverse or the waterspout."

    Hi Adrian,

    I don't known of any clear reason or timeline between the two locations of the Beco maker mark stamp. I would have thought it was physically easier to stamp the mark in the central location since striking at the centre of gravity would presumably be less likely to cause shifting of the planchet than striking it off to the edge? If that were so, then maybe the ones marked to the lower right are earlier than than the centrally marked examples until they got the hang of it? But that's just speculation and there are no other clues that I can see. It's just as possible that they started with the central mark and didn't like that their logo was obscured by the main pin so switched to a more visible location.

    No other maker put their mark off to the side like that -- all other marks were along the midline whether in the centre of the water column, centred in the lower margin or in the main pin. So it's even possible they started off to the side and then switched to the centre to conform with the majority. Guess we'll never know.

    When I put them in the classification table I put the central mark first (2.4.1) simply because it was more common than the mark off to the side (2.4.2), but it was fairly arbitrary.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

  7. #16
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    Mind you, Wiedmann struck theirs off to the side.......?

  8. #17
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    Hello I want to thank everybody for having helps me to authenticate the item that I have displayed very appreciated

    Thank you

    Meech

  9. #18
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    "Mind you, Wiedmann struck theirs off to the side.......?"

    Hi Adrian,

    Right you are! Thanks for reminding me. Which raises another point. There's great consistency between examples in the location of the Wiedmann stamp and also the two locations of the Beco stamps. This suggests that it's not a simple hand held punch that is used for the marks but rather a consistent stamping tool -- could be part of the reverse die or perhaps incorporated in the trimming tools or a separate "marking die" of some sort. Sure would be nice to figure this out.

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

  10. #19
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    I agree Norm. A hand held punch wouldn't give the consistent positioning of these marks. My personal opinion is that the stamping is a secondary process, not in the initial strike of the badge.

    I can't remember off the top of my head how many makers used a stamped type mark that wasn't obvious as part of the reverse die - the two mentioned in this thread, Deumer L/11 perhaps but in the case of the latter, I think this was a hand stamp. Regarding the Weidmann and Beco badges, these both have a logo or stylised version of the makers name, and both marked their badges consistently in the same places, not just a plain numbered mark.
    Maybe there is a connection there, a secondary stamping process which enabled these two makers to mark their badges in a particular way, with their own company mark, not just a plain number. If this is the case, it couldbe fair to assume the secondary process tooling was able to incorporate this logo and create a good, crisp mark.

  11. #20
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    Default Re: Kriegsabzeichen für Minensuch/Mine sweeper badge

    Hi Adrian,

    I completely agree. Deumer, S&L, Schickle and Mayer all used hand held stamps for their LDO numbers whereas company logos when they occur (Schwerin, Assmann, Souval, Wiedmann, Beco, Richard Simm, Scholze, Karneth, LM) are generated by more elaborate and consistent tooling, either the reverse die or a secondary process tool.

    When it comes to LDO numbers, one stand-out is Hymmen who, although initially just stamped their L/53 number with a hand tool, then moved to incorporate the L/53 mark into the reverse die.

    When it comes to company logos, the one stand-out is Hobacher whose WH mark was hand stamped into the main pin on their Minesweeper (although is was incorporated into the reverse die on their Destroyer badge).

    Best regards,
    ---Norm

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