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Luftwaffe flak kampfabzeichen ??

Article about: Hello what are your thoughts on tis badge it looks good but with no maker I could not find anything to compare it to thank you for your time and help Tony

  1. #1
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    Default Luftwaffe flak kampfabzeichen ??

    Hello
    what are your thoughts on tis badge
    it looks good but with no maker I could not find anything to compare it to
    thank you for your time and help
    Tony
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #2

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    Hi Tony ,I have seen that type of hinge and catch on Steinhauer and Luck pieces but I don't think that they made this type of award? Also like you ,I have not seen one like this one before but it may stand a chance. Hopefully Adrian or Ned will "chip in" with some further information. Leon.
    "Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut." Ernest Hemingway

  4. #3

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    As crude and awful looking as it is, it's actually a genuine badge. It is an unmarked zink Juncker J-3 Small Hinge Variety of Very late war production (1944-5) and it is totally missing it's silver finish. The round plate on the catch and the small hinge on the pin were used on no other badges in this configuration.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  5. #4

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    Nice one William! Leon.
    "Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut." Ernest Hemingway

  6. #5

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    It's not a Juncker J3, or any other type by that maker, it is in fact as Leon suggested, a zinc Steinhauer & Luck Luftwaffe Flakkampfabzeichen, and it is original.

    The rear set up is typical with the short barrel hinge, whilst Juncker utilised a longer barrel hinge except on their wide pin variant. Another noticable point is the rivets around the base of the pedestal, something again not found on any Juncker Luft flak badge, but is to be seen on their Heer flak badges strangely enough.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  7. #6

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    I borrowed these images from the WAF-I hope they don't scream too loudly...The top 2 are the Juncker J-3 and the lower 2 are the S&L . The posted one has the small cut out on the bottom, however.
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    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  8. #7

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    Here's a couple more links regarding the S&L Luftwaffe Flakkampfabzeichen badge that i've been alluding to. Both are of the same badge it appears, but the catch that was originally bent out of shape in one of the WAF photo's has been 'straightened' during it's quote: 'tidy up'. It's interesting to note that the O.P. of that badge and the one above seem to be the same chap, he must of forgotten about the one that he had previously I guess....

    It's useful to take note of the horizontal flaw on the bottom arm of the swastika that is noticable on all of ther S&L badges, but not the Juncker.

    Original Flak Badge ? - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/orders...eichen-379266/

    Here's the pics of the S&L swastika arm flaw seen in this and the other two threads.

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    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  9. #8

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    Okey, Ned...but in That case, the catch is obviously either a replacement or it's some sort of bizarre made hybrid. A S&L with Juncker hardware? Never heard of such an animal. Another possibility is the whole thing is an outright fake. Either way, it's nothing that I would want in my collection-if, for nothing else, it's poor condition to begin with. It almost looks like a ground dug.
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

  10. #9

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    Quote by Wagriff View Post
    Okey, Ned...but in That case, the catch is obviously either a replacement or it's some sort of bizarre made hybrid. A S&L with Juncker hardware? Never heard of such an animal. Another possibility is the whole thing is an outright fake. Either way, it's nothing that I would want in my collection-if, for nothing else, it's poor condition to begin with. It almost looks like a ground dug.
    Hi William,

    If it's 'obviously' a replacement catch or a 'bizarre made hybrid' then there does appear to be a lot of them around after only a cursory look for the type on the WAF forum alone.

    New Luft Flak Help !! - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    And a thread with both examples of catch on two undisputed wartime produced S&L Luft flak badges....

    Steinhauer & Lück Flak Badge - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    Finally, a thread where the notorious post war S&L 'scrape' is mentioned by non other than Tom Durante, who raises some interesting thoughts on these badges who's veracity can be seen as questionable, as did I myself when asking for a better shot of the 'scrape' on Tony's other S&L Luft flak badge I highlighted in post #7.

    Luft Flak for opinoins - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    To help differentiate between the two known types of toolmarks, here's a couple of montages of S&L 'scrapes', firstly the known wartime production examples (note bottom right):

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    And the generally accepted post war, or '57 type' tool marks:

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    Comparison to the badge that originally started this thread shows what category I believe it falls into, that of wartime manufacture (zoom may be required):

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    Let us not forget that all 4 Juncker type Luft flak badges, the J1,2,3 and the 'JT' or 'Juncker Transitional' do not have the rivets at the base of the gun pedestal, that is crucial to defining the maker of each type.

    Hopefully this will clarify the situation.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  11. #10

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    Hello Ned, Actually, Tom Durante is the one you should show this to, as his "Gallery of Original Badges" section is apparently lacking this information and does not show an S&L zinc with this catch. In fact, he only shows a single variety for S&L, so I would imagine that he'd be most grateful to have this information. He would be quite annoyed, I'm sure, to see that he had left out this particular variety. In fact, I believe he even mentions this specifically, that anyone seeing missing varieties and errors should let him known. Since you've got the work all done above, I'm can't imagine what else he would need to see. Good bit of sleuthing!
    William

    "Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."

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