Luftwaffe Fliegerschützenabzeichen mit Blitzbündel.

[Anubis]

Good question, we don't know it yet. All we know that IMME and Sohn, and Deumer used Juncker parts to their luft. badges. As Deumer FLL is a Lüdenscheid maker too, so I think its possible that there is some connection.
Only the ROAG FLL is similar to Juncker badges the others are not, but its very interesting that FLL luft badges are usually not very high quality badges, but about ROAG, they made aluminium and even cupal ROAG's.

[Adrian]

The similarities are too much of a coincidence, even down to the feather details so I think it could be a strong possibility that what you say is correct. Did FLL make pilots badges in any other material other than zinc or tombak?

[Anubis]

No, only ROAG nothing else, I put this question now to the GCA too, I am curious what Karsten and the other ROAG experts will say.

[Adrian]

It seems very bizzare they would go to the trouble of making just one type of badge in various materials and not others.
Or perhaps not, perhaps the ROAG badges were an early experiment in different types of base metal before producing other badge designs and it was found that manufacturing in aluminium or cupal wasn't time or cost effective and therefore they stuck to tombak or zinc. Are there any thoughts on the timeline these ROAG badges were produced?

[Anubis]

Here is the Deumer timeline, posted by Karsten:
A. Is the first of Deumers ROAG´s and is a fully Juncker Design of Eagle and wreath. No Doubt that Juncker was involved in this. If they where made by Juncker, is not really known for sure, but it seems very likely that Juncker produced the eagles and wreaths for Deumer, but Deumer assembled them and applied the set-up on the reverse is quite clear.
There is also some uncertainty about date, but it should be approx. 1938/39-1940

B. A Deumer produced ROAG in Nickel-Silver. Different eagle and wreath from Juncker. Easiest way to tell them apart with the naked eye is properly the air-hole in the beak, which the Juncker designed eagle does not have.
produced 1940- 1941/42.

C. Same design as B, but in zinc. air-hole in the beak is removed and the area between the upper swastika and the bolts is filled out.
Produced 1941/42-1945.

D. Airgunner designed by Deumer and also in zinc.
Produced 1942/43-1945.

E. Same design as D, but with black wreath and silver eagle + Swastika.
Produced 1944-1945.

[Anubis]

I would say Juncker and Assmann was the first so approx 1938. They made badges also from aluminium at the beginning.
But Cupal? Even Juncker didn't produce cupal luft. badges only PAB and GAB's.

[Adrian]

So would this Deumer be the late version, type E with the silver eagle? Not much finish left on it but the wings of the eagle have a small amount remaining.

[Anubis]

Yes.

[Anubis]

Some infos Karsten wrote today about this FLL thing:
"Many Luftwaffe, share some of the same characteristic´s as Juncker. Especially Deumer was very influenced by Juncker, but also JMME & Sohn had some sort of business relationship with Juncker, wich it not yet fully unwrapped to what extend these two companies worked together with Juncker.
If you compare the FLL with the Juncker J3, you will find some similarities, but still quite different IMO.
However if you take the GWL, and the 57er ST&L ROAG´s and compare it with the Unknown Maker (FLL), it is IMO quite obvious that they had some sort of connection within Lüdenscheid.
The Unknown Maker (FLL) has not yet been found in cupal, however the aluminum has a copper layer on the wreath.
It is found in three metals:
Aluminum
Nickel- Silver
Zinc
Regarding when they started, a guess from observation I would think that the earliest ROAG´s are somewhere between 1938-1940."

[Adrian]

Excellent information János. Thank you for posting.