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a Mutterkreuz question

Article about: Collectors of the Mothers Cross, will surely have a few pointers that they look out for on the MC, when deciding whether to buy one, or when they decide to comment that a MC is either authen

  1. #51


    The quality of a Mutterkreuz is a criteria I look to when deciding if a particular piece is original or not. Well executed enamel, flush with the metal dividing lines between the white and blue. Consistent translucency, fine details. These all are to be taken into consideration notwithstanding small differences between different makers.
    These were a standard award made by many manufacturers. There is bound to be small variations in details such as the '3' above.

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  3. #52


    Considering there is no definitive proof that they are fake, and you even consider one to be real, I wouldn't of removed the roundel.

  4. #53


    Anyway, as many of you will soon read about, and see, we know what period messing looks like under magnification compared to post war metals, and cheap-o metals. We also know, that no matter how many times you look at a period small badge or item like the MC under high magnification, the results are always going to be the same, the item will either tell you that it was worn, that the base metal used is correct, and that the patina shown is honest and correct for the way in which it was used/worn. You can try this for yourself, this is not "my opinion" whispering in your ear and trying to convince you that i am right, or some obscure publication dictating to you, it is simply your own items telling their story and showing your their scars., without any outside influence.

    I know that i am going way over the heads of many at the moment, so i suggest that you bookmark this thread, and come back to it in a while. Before we get into the MC-3 part, here are four magnified images from various TR period badges, just to give those who are lost right now, a brief example of what you really do, want to see under magnification, on a messing award/badge, that was worn, that has been there and done it, and lived to show you, it`s scars.

    a Mutterkreuz questiona Mutterkreuz question
    a Mutterkreuz questiona Mutterkreuz question

    The first MC from post 1, well the magnified number 3 of that badge.

    a Mutterkreuz question

    Now, as i explained in the previous post, you are not just looking at the number 3 slightly enlarged, the actual image you are seeing here, is a reduced 8000 x 6000 image, enlargement of a surface of around 1,5 mm in total. So basically you are looking through a microscope, revealing every micro-scrape and nick & dent., revealing the honest patina.

  5. #54


    I do realize that most of you have no idea what i am on about right now, but in time you will. After you have seen the results for yourself, of 100, 1000, endless - tests done on period and fakes items, in this manner.

    Here is the last image for tonight, Mothers Cross number 2. I dont need to tell you which one, i am 100% sure is a genuine, made of messing, and honestly worn TR badge, and which one is the imposter, because i am not, the badges themselves are telling you

    a Mutterkreuz question

  6. #55


    Keep going Jo, I'm sure it will be a worthy exercise and will provide more education and learning material.

  7. #56


    This dismantling of these Mutterkreuz has been done for a specific reason. It is not wanton vandalism.

    For those who wish to bemoan this I will warn you now not to bother posting as you comments from here on will be deleted. Don't waste your time or mine.

    Sometimes a small sacrifice needs to be made in the interests of further education so stop being precious and self righteous about it, read and follow the thread and prepare to be open minded.

    Historical items have been taken apart for many years to discover more about them. There is a whole other debate there which we will not be going any further with here.

  8. #57


    The thing is, no matter what part of the MCs you select, magnify and then compare to each other, the results are always the same. On one of them, we find everything that we find on originals, indeed happy feelings all around, especially with the honest patina we are seeing on the outer edges and places we would really expect to find it - and on the other, (although this will take a long time for folk to realize as they would need to look at more items looked at like this, or even do it themselves to get a general overview) we not only find nothing of the sort that we would hope to, we find everything that we see on post war productions.

    a Mutterkreuz question

    Unfortunately Adrian, my "tampering" was not limited to a few cheap badges, and will admit upfront, before anyone who reads my book has a heart attack, that i ruined a good few thousand dollars worth of originals and reproductions for the book. How could i not? Write about a subject as vastly complicated and new to the hobby, as forensics, a subject respected by international courts of law, and just add my opinion to the pretty images that i presented? I wouldn't have felt comfortable just pretending to claim something in my book because it sounds cool, or sounds like it is correct. I really needed to have the practical hands-on behind the words, and be 100% sure that what i was saying, or claiming, was in fact correct.

    The last reason is respect. I dont have the right, to add my opinion to a subject as important as forensics, or interpret certain facets, or images the way i want to. I dont have a choice in this matter either as anybody can do these "tests" which would "out" me as a charlatan if i did straight away. Once you know what to look for, and once you accept the forensic-rabble, such as honest patina and correct manufacturing & materials observed under extreme magnification, (compared to fakes) as well as understanding that what you are looking at, is on a surface so minute, that it would be humanly impossible to recreate that patina in order to fool [a forensic test], then you will realize that a test done in this manner, is conclusive, and is nothing less that the badges fingerprint. It superceeds anything you or i would like to think, or may have an opinion of. And it needs to be swallowed whole, even if that means we gag a bit and find more fakes in our collections. (which i am constantly doing.)

  9. #58


    Quote by youthcollector1 View Post
    This is a honest, and I feel, fair, question. If the quote below is so, why destroy the badge by ripping of the roundel off?
    It is, and i explained why i did this in post 3.
    Quote by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    the reason is that i took the roundels off, was to see how each one was affixed.
    And as you have read from a few posters on this thread, it comes in handy to know how they are affixed if you want to debate about things like a rotated face of 45° etc.. or indeed even partake in a debate on the way the roundel was affixed - although that is not what is happening on this thread - that way, you have some background info already on the various ways that period manufacturers "did it" as well as having some knowledge on how post war makers "did it". But the point is actually having, or obtaining that knowledge in the first place. And to do so, badges must break, enamel must shatter, inquiring minds must be fed.

    What is more disrespectful to those who won and wore the items we collect, babbling some nonsense about something you think you know, which could "brand" a good badge a fake forever, or visa versa? Or, damaging a few of the items they won and wore in order to better understand them, and insure that these, cherished items, albethem small and cheap, can take their rightful place in history, and expose the fraudsters who claim to be those cherished, won and wore items, but are anything but?

  10. #59


    Hi Jo. You are very enamored with enamel I know. I also have seen false items of these one of them had no (.) after the date and a very small ribbon hole.
    Also the Blue did not exhibit the fish scale look the same as orig I have seen.
    Here is some of mine. Adrian has me beat

    a Mutterkreuz question

    Small from Förster and Barth L/21 a Mutterkreuz question

    Small from L/60 Gustav Brehmer. a Mutterkreuz question

    And this small one has no engraving and my others do.
    a Mutterkreuz questiona Mutterkreuz question
    Last edited by Eric Zentner; 09-22-2013 at 06:42 AM.
    [h=3]e pluˇriˇbus uˇnum[/h]

  11. #60


    Here are some threads showing fake Mutterkreuz:

    Fake Mutterkreuz.

    Fake Mutterkreuz.

    Fake Mutterkreuz. Page 2.

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