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a Mutterkreuz question

Article about: Collectors of the Mothers Cross, will surely have a few pointers that they look out for on the MC, when deciding whether to buy one, or when they decide to comment that a MC is either authen

  1. #1

    Default a Mutterkreuz question

    Collectors of the Mothers Cross, will surely have a few pointers that they look out for on the MC, when deciding whether to buy one, or when they decide to comment that a MC is either authentic, or a repro.

    Would some of these collectors care to share these pointers, regarding the following two MCs. What observations can be made?
    What are the "Good features" that you are seeing on both? - if any..
    What are the "Bad features" that you are seeing on both? - if any..
    What points straight away to them (1 or both) being bad, or good?

    The images are large enough, but if anyone needs images from other angles, just ask..

    Mothers Cross N1.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mothers Cross N2.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Adrian; 09-21-2013 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Title changed to use German terminology.

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  3. #2
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    Hi Jo,

    Two piece construction is always good!

    Is there a reason you have posted two without the central disc?

  4. #3

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    Adrian, when you say 2 piece construction, do you mean a cross, with a separate roundel soldered on? That would mean that some fakes are 1 piece construction? (that would mean that the enamel could not be polished flush to the surface because the raised roundel would be in the way?)
    Yes, the reason is that i took the roundels off, was to see how each one was affixed. That has nothing to do with a pointer towards fake/genuine though, and even if it did, would be pretty brainless, as it would mean having to destroy your items to see whether they were real. That was just me being destructive as usual. I also wanted to see what points there are to judge the cross, and not the separate roundel. Surely the roundel is of no importance whatsoever? or, could it be that the way to tell fake from genuine lies only, or mainly, in the small roundel? surely not....

    The cross should be enough, with the reverse stampings, the enamel, shape, wear etc.. and surely many other small points that collectors of these have come to use as "pointers". Well i certainly hope so, because i fear i have lost one roundel, and broken the other.

  5. #4
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    I would personally consider a one piece cross to be post war made perhaps someone else knows different, in which case I hope they will share it here. Two piece construction is a good sign although I have no doubt fakes of two piece construction are available.

    The central discs are normally attached by a male/female type fitting of which there are many different variations, triangles/squares, four pegs, four holes, or similar to the above examples etc etc

    You also find some Mutterkreuz with the central disc rotated at angles from the normal orientation. This is because the person assembling has not lined up the holes/shapes/pegs correctly and therefore the orientation of the swastika/Der Deutschen Mutter words can be found at all angles depending on how 'wrong' it was assembled.

  6. #5

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    Quote by Adrian View Post

    The central discs are .... many different variations, triangles/squares, four pegs, four holes, ... some Mutterkreuz with the central disc rotated at angles from the normal orientation. .... the orientation of the swastika/Der Deutschen Mutter words can be found at all angles depending on how 'wrong' it was assembled.
    Great then that i took both roundels off that saves time discussing many factors, which really have nothing to do with authenticity, human errors really, that will apply to pre and post war equally

  7. #6
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    Fakes of the Mutterkreuz generally have thick enamel, too shiny and lacking the clean lines that we see on the above examples.

    Although the starburst area between the arms can vary between manufacturers, fakes tend to have thick and chunky rays emanating from the centre.

    The reverse text is also poorly executed on some fakes.

    The dots, striations, marks under the translucent blue enamel vary. Some fakes don't have it, some do but in the fashion of the marks under the enamel on partieabzeichen fakes, too large, too blobby.

    Sometimes the translucent blue enamel on fakes isn't translucent, it is thick and solid in colour.

    Luckily, the original awards are common and serious faking hasn't really taken place.

  8. #7

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    Quote by Adrian View Post
    Fakes of the Mutterkreuz generally have thick enamel, too shiny and lacking the clean lines that we see on the above examples.
    Adrian, does this mean that the examples shown in post 1. are looking good - so far?
    Quote by Adrian View Post
    Luckily, the original awards are common and serious faking hasn't really taken place.
    That they are common, i cannot argue with. But that "any serious faking [of the Mothers Cross) hasn't taken place," is an illusion Adrian.
    Adverts as far back as the late 1950s, and right through the 1960s can be found from more than one seller (either a forger, or just a middle man like many fake sellers were back then) offering the Mothers Cross, in bulk lots of up to 1000 pieces at a time. Sadly we dont have manufacturers like Souval, saying that they continued to produce the Mothers Cross for 30 years after the war, but we do have Souval, saying that they produced "Crosses" in their hundreds of thousands, for many years after the war.

    Now i would imagine at this point, collectors of the Iron Cross, will be inclined to say that Souval (and many others) meant the Mothers Cross, and not the Iron Cross, and collectors of the Mothers Cross will be inclined to say that Souval (and others) meant the Iron Cross. We were not working or even buying these fakes in bulk during the 1950-1990 period, so we cant be sure. What we do have though, are older advertisements as solid proof, that both were being faked - en mass. No real discussion even needs to take place here, because it would all be speculation. It is just an interesting observation that can be made about the forging of the Mothers Cross - en mass - after 1945, no more.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But lets get back to the images in post one, and the few questions asked about them.

    What are the "Good features" that you are seeing on both? - if any..
    (plus points so far are the clean lines, on both N1 & N2.)
    What are the "Bad features" that you are seeing on both? - if any..
    What points straight away to them (1 or both) being bad, or good?

    EDIT: Below are close-ups of portions of the blue enamel, taken from the same place, on both badges. The center cut-out shows you which badge the images come from. Maybe they will help?

    Mothers Cross N1.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mothers Cross N2.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 09-21-2013 at 06:00 PM. Reason: added a plus point :-)

  9. #8
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    Quote by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    Adrian, does this mean that the examples shown in post 1. are looking good - so far?
    In my opinion yes, they are good.

    I'm at work at the moment so can't maintain an in depth discussion until tomorrow but I will add more when I can.

  10. #9

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    Quote by Adrian View Post
    In my opinion yes, they are good.

    I'm at work at the moment so can't maintain an in depth discussion until tomorrow but I will add more when I can.
    Adrian, sweet as a nut and Merci for the time.
    If i put them next to each other, in my grubby paw, i would actually say the same. Then again, i dont collect them, so am not aware of any instant downfalls with these, like i know of with other items, so best to wait and see what the verdict is from people who collect them.

  11. #10

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    I suppose the question is moot, since the badges have
    been destroyed.........
    Regards,


    Steve.

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