There is a very good and, I believe, lengthy thread on WAF about these and their assembly. Factory misalignment is not out of the question I believe.
When I have time, I will try to find it.
Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)
05-12-2016 03:53 PM
They are Not "fakes," they are reproductions!!! A Fake is something that Never existed, such as a numbered wound badge.
Souval was still in production at least into the 1990s. I was in the factory twice, first in the mid/late 80s and again in the very early 90s (IF I remember correktly). I got to go thru the factory and their giant upstairs display room. They were still making everything they had made in the wartime years.
They had however slightly changed their factory logo on the reverse of the medals.
In both instances I bought a bunch of medals to sell to re-enactors here in the US. I also later bought more repros by mail. Somewhere I still have the bills of sale for all those medals.
No offense, but that is not the generally accepted terminology.
A completely made-up item with no basis in reality is usually referred to as a "fantasy piece", whereas a copy of something that did/does exist is a "fake" or a "reproduction".
For all practical purposes in the field of collecting, the latter two terms are pretty much interchangeable, although "fake" implies the intention to deceive, which "reproduction" does not. Of course, something may well have been expressly offered as a reproduction by the original manufacturer, but passed off as genuine by a later re-seller.
Webster's defintion of fake:
fake n 1: an imitation that is passed off as genuine: FRAUD, COUNTERFEIT (the supposed antique was a fake) 2: IMPOSTOR, CHARLATAN
I can see where your coming from Doug.
It would make it far easier and less time consuming if the cross's all did had a key hole alignment set up between the round and cross unless there were flat backed rounds and cross's. If not, the rounds must sit at least 1mm proud of the cross on the ones that are miss a lined.
I take it these were soldered together because I tried to remove the round from my cross to help you in your research but this prove to be more difficult than I thought.
I will be interested to hear how your research turns out as I have 9 of these all made slightly different.
The discs are soldered to the cross Rod.
If you do a trawl of pictures (I have a few examples) you may note that some of the discs have black spots in the white enamel....
The reason this happens is the discs must be sat for some time after they have been enamelled and then heat is applied (to attach the disc to the cross) and any moisture that has been absorbed in the enamel on the disc and this heats up and 'explodes' causing a black spot.
It is very common in ceramic production which is basically the exact same reaction.
I only have a couple of crosses with loose discs and one really damaged cross where I can see how they are put together.
Of course once I have the opportunity to study the pebble variations on the crosses it will give me an idea of how it would be put together.
There is just 'tons' of research to do on such a humble award.
I may be able to get there in the end! I just need more time to do the study.
All the best
A very interesting thread. Thanks a lot!
I only have the three crosses for now. I was thinking that the blunted rays could be from wear on the original tooling? In regard to the "ubergrosse" crosses, any idea how much "uber" they were? I know variations must exist but have never seen a side by side comparison of a number of crosses, without regard to grade, to delve into how common dimensional variations are. I have a boxed gold example, however, who knows if that cross goes with that box?
I did a quick side by side comparison of 20 of mine and they are all a perfect match. Gold silver and bronze.
I did not like the look of your silver when I first looked at it.
The font looks 'chubby' and flattened
As you mention the inner ray is blunted.
I certainly haven't got a match in any colour
Your silver one could be a Souval special but only you know what provenance it has.
I wouldn't be able to say if it was produced in 1945 or 2015 but if you look at the dedication on the rear it is a damned good (similar) match to every other 'original' cross so I would be happy incorporating it in to my research
When I get chance I will check a bigger wodge of the ones that I have