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Vaulted Silber Mutterkreuz and all the research that goes with it!

Article about: Hello All, I considered going down the route of doing an in depth study of the 2nd Pattern German Mothers Cross with a view to determining the maker by the construction of the cross using in

  1. #11

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    Hello Doug,
    There is a very good and, I believe, lengthy thread on WAF about these and their assembly. Factory misalignment is not out of the question I believe.
    When I have time, I will try to find it.
    Ralph.

    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

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  3. #12
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    Quote by carpediem View Post
    I agree with you that they are an attractive piece to collect. I was unaware of the continued production of these after the war. Maybe that explains why some of those that look so fantastically well preserved. The gold example I have is not bright and shiny as many I see, and that concerned me as I thought it could be a fake. However, then it would seem that all those looking like they were just made would be the fakes. It was disconcerting, especially since that was the first purchase in my small collection and I really was hoping it to be genuine. Even with a makers mark, as we all know, it is no guarantee of authenticity, but at least it can be compared to known examples that are proven to be genuine.
    I look forward to seeing what your research develops. Good post and an excellent collection!
    They are Not "fakes," they are reproductions!!! A Fake is something that Never existed, such as a numbered wound badge.
    Souval was still in production at least into the 1990s. I was in the factory twice, first in the mid/late 80s and again in the very early 90s (IF I remember correktly). I got to go thru the factory and their giant upstairs display room. They were still making everything they had made in the wartime years.
    They had however slightly changed their factory logo on the reverse of the medals.
    In both instances I bought a bunch of medals to sell to re-enactors here in the US. I also later bought more repros by mail. Somewhere I still have the bills of sale for all those medals.
    Sarge

  4. #13

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    Quote by Sarge View Post
    They are Not "fakes," they are reproductions!!! A Fake is something that Never existed, such as a numbered wound badge.
    No offense, but that is not the generally accepted terminology.

    A completely made-up item with no basis in reality is usually referred to as a "fantasy piece", whereas a copy of something that did/does exist is a "fake" or a "reproduction".

    For all practical purposes in the field of collecting, the latter two terms are pretty much interchangeable, although "fake" implies the intention to deceive, which "reproduction" does not. Of course, something may well have been expressly offered as a reproduction by the original manufacturer, but passed off as genuine by a later re-seller.

    Webster's defintion of fake:

    fake n 1: an imitation that is passed off as genuine: FRAUD, COUNTERFEIT (the supposed antique was a fake) 2: IMPOSTOR, CHARLATAN

  5. #14

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    I can see where your coming from Doug.
    It would make it far easier and less time consuming if the cross's all did had a key hole alignment set up between the round and cross unless there were flat backed rounds and cross's. If not, the rounds must sit at least 1mm proud of the cross on the ones that are miss a lined.
    I take it these were soldered together because I tried to remove the round from my cross to help you in your research but this prove to be more difficult than I thought.
    I will be interested to hear how your research turns out as I have 9 of these all made slightly different.
    best regards
    Rod

  6. #15

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    Quote by plumbob View Post
    I can see where your coming from Doug.
    It would make it far easier and less time consuming if the cross's all did had a key hole alignment set up between the round and cross unless there were flat backed rounds and cross's. If not, the rounds must sit at least 1mm proud of the cross on the ones that are miss a lined.
    I take it these were soldered together because I tried to remove the round from my cross to help you in your research but this prove to be more difficult than I thought.
    I will be interested to hear how your research turns out as I have 9 of these all made slightly different.
    best regards
    Rod
    The discs are soldered to the cross Rod.
    If you do a trawl of pictures (I have a few examples) you may note that some of the discs have black spots in the white enamel....

    The reason this happens is the discs must be sat for some time after they have been enamelled and then heat is applied (to attach the disc to the cross) and any moisture that has been absorbed in the enamel on the disc and this heats up and 'explodes' causing a black spot.
    It is very common in ceramic production which is basically the exact same reaction.

    I only have a couple of crosses with loose discs and one really damaged cross where I can see how they are put together.

    Of course once I have the opportunity to study the pebble variations on the crosses it will give me an idea of how it would be put together.

    There is just 'tons' of research to do on such a humble award.

    I may be able to get there in the end! I just need more time to do the study.

    All the best
    Doug

  7. #16
    JMM
    JMM is offline
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    A very interesting thread. Thanks a lot!

  8. #17

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    Doug,
    In your research, have you ever noticed variation in the dimensions of the crosses? I was fooling around with my recently acquired silver version, and noticed it has different dimensions, only slight, to my bronze and gold examples. In addition, it has some blunted rays in the sunburst design, something I have never seen. See my photos.

  9. #18

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    Hello Carpedium,
    Nice crosses...that is the sort of pictures that I am have to do of the ones I have and any future acquisitions so that I can do some heavy comparison. It is just finding the time.
    I do know of 'ubergrosse' crosses but I don't know who the maker is yet.
    As a reference a lot of early reproduction crosses that were produced have weak pointed rays.
    When I looked at your post on the phone the white border seemed to be too wide but now I am at home the cross looks good.
    As I mention in my earlier posts I am 100% certain that these crosses have been produced post war by different manufacturers and probably continue to do so.

    It's like the 'Deumer hoard', The 'Deschler hoard' and all the other 'hoards' all found in old factory rooms or forgotten stores....I may be too suspicious but just when was that hoard put in there?
    I know of the Deumer hoard of Mothers Crosses and I just had to buy one to see what the excitement was about. This is one of the few crosses that I have had to buy from a dealer.
    BUT what that does give me is what I have to assume is a correctly patterned Cross that I should be able to use as a reference.

    Below is my latest addition just a bronze but still with most of the lacquer that was coated to protect the cross with...much the same as yours that you show above.
    My piece came from an ex vet family so I am fairly sure that it is pre 1946/7

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you ever have the opportunity to post a packeted or boxed piece close ups of the pattern, fonts and dedication would be appreciated...(It may save me having to buy hundreds of crosses to compare)

    All the best
    Doug

  10. #19

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    I only have the three crosses for now. I was thinking that the blunted rays could be from wear on the original tooling? In regard to the "ubergrosse" crosses, any idea how much "uber" they were? I know variations must exist but have never seen a side by side comparison of a number of crosses, without regard to grade, to delve into how common dimensional variations are. I have a boxed gold example, however, who knows if that cross goes with that box?

  11. #20

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    I did a quick side by side comparison of 20 of mine and they are all a perfect match. Gold silver and bronze.

    I did not like the look of your silver when I first looked at it.
    The font looks 'chubby' and flattened
    As you mention the inner ray is blunted.
    I certainly haven't got a match in any colour

    Your silver one could be a Souval special but only you know what provenance it has.

    I wouldn't be able to say if it was produced in 1945 or 2015 but if you look at the dedication on the rear it is a damned good (similar) match to every other 'original' cross so I would be happy incorporating it in to my research

    When I get chance I will check a bigger wodge of the ones that I have

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