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Vaulted Silber Mutterkreuz and all the research that goes with it!

Article about: Hello All, I considered going down the route of doing an in depth study of the 2nd Pattern German Mothers Cross with a view to determining the maker by the construction of the cross using in

  1. #21

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    I only just received it early this week. Provenance is completely unknown to me, other than who I purchased it from. It did seem unusual to me, but it didn't seem to be a fake. If you encountered none that deviated from what appears to be a standard dimension (the dimension at the end of the horizontal arm), then I have to question mine. It does have the under enamel contouring and the inscription looks good. The width of the white enamel also seems to be in line. The font is a little different, but it does match somewhat the font on my bronze example.


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  3. #22

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    This came to me like this Doug. Iíve often thought that they may have been together forever.
    That perhaps some mother had put her previously acquired silver in the box along with her newly earned gold for safety.
    But who knows!
    All you need now is at least another ten examples of the same maker and hope most have the same details. And thatís providing all that makers dies were the same. Itís going to be a difficult task and I hope others post pictures of their examples to help in your quest.
    I see there are quick spotters like the different designs of ribbon eyes so pictures without ribbons might help you.
    I will have a shot at getting that round off my damaged bronze soon.
    Regards
    Rod
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  4. #23

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    Plumbob, I believe your silver is similar to mine. It appears to have the same blunted rays. Any chance you could check the ends of the two together?

  5. #24

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    Quote by carpediem View Post
    Plumbob, I believe your silver is similar to mine. It appears to have the same blunted rays. Any chance you could check the ends of the two together?
    Yes mate it does look to be the same. I wouldn't say blunt more shorter perhaps. pity we haven't got their packets.
    Rod

  6. #25

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    Thanks Rod,
    Is the width at the end larger than your gold? Trying to see if anyone finds one like I have, just a bit larger than "normal".

  7. #26

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    Hi Rod,
    they are great pictures of your cross. I will use those as a reference.
    I have pulled up the Redo that I have on file and it looks like a perfect match so we could tentatively give this one a 'type'. obviously a few more Redo matching crosses in boxes would confirm the decision.

    So that's about a massive 2 that I can recognise...A 'Ziemer', these crosses all have a dot above the 'i' in Hitler signature. I haven't come across any other maker who does this and now a Redo.

    Pictured below is the cross that I have on file (thanks to the original owner)
    If you do a side by side comparison with yours you will see that it is an exact match including the 'pebbling' below the blue glaze.
    Studying the two crosses side by side you will notice a couple of minor differences but this can be put down to the hand finishing.
    I think at this point we need to think about how these crosses were made.
    So we have the main cross die stamped out and I think at this point the dedication and signature would also have been impressed in to the back using a floating die (a floating die you may ask...I'll explain in a minute).
    The powdered or paste enamel would have been put in to the recessed areas and the cross then cooked to make the glass molten.
    After coming out of the kiln the cross would be hand polished which would account for the minor differences in thickness of the dividing areas of enamel.
    The cross would then have the roundel applied and the final stage would be to apply the plating of whatever colour and hey presto a Mothers cross.

    There are a few minor differences on the roundel font but I am putting this down to a worn die.

    So to the reverse. you will see that the date and signatures are a perfect match but on the one below you can see that it is impressed at a little higher point. This means that it is a completely different back die that has been used or the die can be moved up and down but always on the same vertical plane.

    Pull the pictures off and give the comparison a go, it was an interesting little study.

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    So lets sum up our knowledge so far.
    I have a list that I am compiling of makers or at least of the makers that stamped their envelopes and boxes. My running total is exactly 70.
    For most makers I have only seen one grade of cross.
    Makers that I have seen who have made multiple grades are:
    Deumer, Gold boxes, Silver envelopes and of course the Bronze from the 'Hoard' (I still haven't seen a bronze envelope.
    Forster & Graf, Gold Box and Silver envelope
    Richard Sieper & Sohn, Gold Box and Bronze envelope and
    Ziemer, Gold Box and loose silver.
    Of the other 66 I have only seen one grade

    There is a reference that on the Erntedankfest in 1939 about 5,000,000 Mothers crosses were awarded. Which even roughly divided by the number of makers that I know would be around 70,000 crosses per maker. That is one heck of a production run even for the biggest of firms averaging out at around 14000 per month which leads me to conclude that due to damaged/broken dies there is every possibility that there are multiple designs of crosses made by an individual manufacturer making positive identification that much harder.
    (14000 per month worked out as December 1938 inception date to May 1939 issue date)

    Anyway to conclude with what we have so far that through our joint efforts we can now identify a Ziemer Cross and Redo Cross with near certainty. (subject to the limitations we have discussed above)


    On to your silver cross and the one Carpediem posted. They do have very similar characteristics and could indeed be made by the same maker.
    I have popped a silver from my files below. I originally had it as an 'Unknown maker' but now know it to be a Ziemer style.

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    This shows very similar sunburst design to the two silvers above.
    The devil will be in the detail.

    If any reader has any attributable crosses please feel free to post them here as any help would be greatly appreciated

    Doug
    Last edited by Saladin; 05-19-2016 at 04:02 PM.

  8. #27

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    Excellent info Doug! Does the boxed silver also have slightly larger dimensions at the cross arms? That would seem to be a specific trait if it is present in several similar samples.

  9. #28

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    Quote by carpediem View Post
    Excellent info Doug! Does the boxed silver also have slightly larger dimensions at the cross arms? That would seem to be a specific trait if it is present in several similar samples.
    I don't know it's not one of mine. I kept the picture on file because it has the dot above the i knowing that one day I would track it down.

    I have had a quick look at the crosses I have on file here in work and it seems that there are quite a few that have a blunt ended rays but this could be down to the dies wearing out.
    Another observation I have made is that most gold crosses all have sharp ended rays.

    Looking at my database I have 12 makers that I have only ever come across a silver cross and envelope so yours could be one of these makers..........pure speculation on my part

  10. #29

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    Hello Doug,
    I will add some of my bagged examples to this thread for reference later today.
    Here is a bronze example from the maker of Frank & Reif.
    Ehrenkreuz der Deutsche Mutter Dritte Stufe, With packet marked Frank & Reif
    Here is a silver in an LDO case, no maker mark.
    Ehrenkreuz der Deutsche Mutter Zweite Stufe, With LDO Case
    Ralph.
    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

  11. #30
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    Very interesting.
    this is my two MK, you can see the difference of enamel quality.
    More round on the bronze one and more flat on the silver one.

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