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Vaulted Silber Mutterkreuz and all the research that goes with it!

Article about: Hello All, I considered going down the route of doing an in depth study of the 2nd Pattern German Mothers Cross with a view to determining the maker by the construction of the cross using in

  1. #31

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    Quote by rbminis View Post
    Hello Doug,
    I will add some of my bagged examples to this thread for reference later today.
    Here is a bronze example from the maker of Frank & Reif.
    Ehrenkreuz der Deutsche Mutter Dritte Stufe, With packet marked Frank & Reif
    Here is a silver in an LDO case, no maker mark.
    Ehrenkreuz der Deutsche Mutter Zweite Stufe, With LDO Case
    Ralph.
    That's a nice pair of crosses Ralph and that is the sort of quality of photographs that I need to start compiling the list.
    The problem that I have is that most of the pictures would be titled unknown maker cross till we can start getting a database up and running.
    If I get chance tomorrow I'll compare your bronze with the one that I have on file.





    I thought that I had a silver to match yours to hand but find that the background under the blue is different and there is a marked difference in the date and dedication

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    Follows is an example of two Ziemer crosses that I mentioned above and you will see that although the final finish is different they are both perfect matches:

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    Now check out a silver Ziemer

    Looks like a pretty perfect match but better pictures would be needed

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    And now the three reverse sides:

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    Well at least that now gives us a firm maker of these crosses.


    carpediem, have a look at the rear profile of the Ziemer crosses and note that the rays look a bit more stunted on the silver.

    Remms,
    Thank you for posting your crosses
    Is there any chance of some straight on photos of your crosses please.... I like the one that has the raised black enamel in the swastika, It is certainly unusual.

    All the best
    Doug

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  3. #32

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    I have at least a couple more with envelopes, I will add them to this thread later.
    Ralph.
    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

  4. #33

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    Quote by carpediem View Post
    Thanks Rod,
    Is the width at the end larger than your gold? Trying to see if anyone finds one like I have, just a bit larger than "normal".
    Yes mate the width of flanged ends are slightly bigger than my other cross's. in fact it looks like its over 1mm bigger than one of my bronze awards.
    Your cross looks fine to me.
    regards
    Rod

  5. #34

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    Thanks Rod, that's another confirmed "oversize" silver. I wonder how many might be out there and people just never put them side by side with any other crosses.
    Excellent photos all, and thanks for that shot of the rays Doug. So we all seem to have some stunted ray silvers. Now, do the stunted rays go hand in hand with the larger cross ends? If that is shown to be true, it could point to one manufacturer. Ziemer?

  6. #35

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    Quote.
    So that's about a massive 2 that I can recognise...A 'Ziemer', these crosses all have a dot above the 'i' in Hitler signature. I haven't come across any other maker who does this and now a Redo.

    I thought I had a Ziemer due to the dot above the I.
    But now I see the pictures. I think this gold cross I have could be another maker who also had this trademark. It is a dot and not a flaw.
    Judge for your self but the graining looks different. I might be wrong.

    regard
    Rod
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  7. #36
    ?

    Thumbs up

    Quote by Saladin View Post
    Hi Rod,
    Makers that I have seen who have made multiple grades are:
    Deumer, Gold boxes, Silver envelopes and of course the Bronze from the 'Hoard' (I still haven't seen a bronze envelope).
    Richard Sieper & Sohn, Gold Box and Bronze envelope
    If any reader has any attributable crosses please feel free to post them here as any help would be greatly appreciated
    Doug
    Don't know what value these will be to the discussion, but:
    Here are my MKs to include minatures and a bronze envelope. Got another brz u. a silv envelope some where, but don't find the photos.
    Well I didn't seem to get these in the order I wanted, the min at the top should have been on the bottom.
    Sarge
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  8. #37

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    Hello Sarge, that is a nice bundle of crosses that you have there.
    I have the makers off the gold boxes but the names on the bronze packets would be useful to see if there are any additions.
    The miniatures are particularly nice pieces. Although not officially recognised I believe by the state they were readily available from numerous retail outlets.

    Rod I have done a quick comparison and to me the gold you posted is a match for a Ziemer.
    There is a tiny amount of pebble difference that I can see but this could be due to the way the crosses have been photographed.
    The signature is a perfect match, check out the tales on the es and the general view.
    I think yours may be showing some die wear.
    Note the actual impression of the date and signature and then have a look at the longest rays. Do you see how they are beginning to round down?

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    Ralph,
    I have only got one other Bronze F&R on file which came with an envelope and just studying the two reverses they are not a match but because of the lacquer finish on yours I would plump for this being the good one and the other is a later marry up.

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  9. #38

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    Hello Doug,
    Here is a silver example in an envelope from the firm of Kerbach & Oesterhelt.
    Ralph.

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    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

  10. #39

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    Here is a bronze grade with envelope from a maker seldom known to make awards. The maker is Otto Fechler from Bernsbach. You can read more about them in this thread from when I first posted it here.
    Ehrenkreuz der Deutsche Mutter Dritte Stufe, with mini and Envelope
    Apologies for the miniature being in there but I did not have a separate photo of this one. You will notice though, that both have the same background details in the blue enamel.
    Ralph.

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    And just to show, they are not always assembled perfectly.

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    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

  11. #40

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    Here is an unissued gold example from Wilhelm Deumer. This also has the same background details in the blue enamel as the last one I posted.
    Ralph.

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    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

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