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Vaulted Silber Mutterkreuz and all the research that goes with it!

Article about: Hello All, I considered going down the route of doing an in depth study of the 2nd Pattern German Mothers Cross with a view to determining the maker by the construction of the cross using in

  1. #1

    Default Vaulted Silber Mutterkreuz and all the research that goes with it!

    Hello All,
    I considered going down the route of doing an in depth study of the 2nd Pattern German Mothers Cross with a view to determining the maker by the construction of the cross using in particular the obverse details including the pebble design below the blue glass enamel and the impression of the dedication and signature on the back.
    After carrying out a few months of research and buying a considerable number of mothers crosses(70 or 80)...see below

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    I have come to the conclusion that this could be a near impossible task.
    To date I have identified 70 different named boxes and envelopes.

    Conclusions:
    For the past 80 years crosses could have been married to suitable boxes/Envelopes.
    So you will never be able to determine correctly that, that particular cross started life with the named box or envelope

    No matter how many Crosses of whatever grade you have you can only assume that the cross has been made by a particular maker using the majority example which in itself is a flawed determination.

    The named boxes/envelopes could have been used by individual manufacturers with one type of cross being inserted in to multiple named items

    Anyway on to the item at the subject heading.

    I had two silver crosses arrive from a dealer over in Germany both were in the same named envelope but under magnification the pebble designs of both crosses and finish to the actual cross differed considerably.
    But this one is of particular interest to me.
    It is the first example that I have come across of a quite heavily vaulted cross.
    Now it may be that the original owner vaulted the cross and was extremely lucky that the enamel didn't shatter or crack but it may be what I consider to be correct is that this cross was enamelled after it had been vaulted but of course any comments or opinions are welcomed.


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    All the best
    Doug
    Last edited by Saladin; 05-11-2016 at 12:10 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Interesting Doug!
    Never seen a vaulted one yet.
    I have moved your thread to the Orders and Decorations section as that is where they have been posted up until now.
    Ralph.
    Searching for anything relating to, Anton Boos, 934 Stamm. Kp. Pz. Erz. Abt. 7, 3 Kompanie, Panzer-Regiment 2, 16th Panzer-Division (My father)

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    I wish these crosses had applied makers marks, as I always find myself doubting their authenticity. Small variations in the font and spacing around the central swastika, as well as should the corners of the swastika touch the outer circle, and if so how many of them, drive me nuts, and I only have two (about to be three) of them! It isn't so much that they are expensive, because they aren't, but who wants a fake.

  5. #4

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    Quote by carpediem View Post
    I wish these crosses had applied makers marks, as I always find myself doubting their authenticity. Small variations in the font and spacing around the central swastika, as well as should the corners of the swastika touch the outer circle, and if so how many of them, drive me nuts, and I only have two (about to be three) of them! It isn't so much that they are expensive, because they aren't, but who wants a fake.
    There are some fakes out there of just about everything and fortunately the MK fakes are quite easy to spot.
    Unfortunately I do believe that most awards that have been produced by wartime manufacturers were made post war and possibly still being made and this includes the humble Mothers Cross.
    I read an article quite recently about the Souval factory were it was admitted that awards were still being produced up until at least the 1970s so why cease production of a lucrative sideline.

    As you mention these Crosses are not that expensive but they are an attractive piece of memorabilia and for my part the amount of work that goes in to them they are well worth the money.

    What I am looking for at the moment are any crosses that are so badly damaged and are not worthy to be collected so that I can deconstruct them to see how they were put together.

  6. #5

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    Very interesting.
    Thank you for this thread

  7. #6
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    The vaulted cross is for a lady with large breasts.

    A great thread buddy.

  8. #7

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    amazing amount of MKs.

  9. #8

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    Quote by Saladin View Post
    There are some fakes out there of just about everything and fortunately the MK fakes are quite easy to spot.
    Unfortunately I do believe that most awards that have been produced by wartime manufacturers were made post war and possibly still being made and this includes the humble Mothers Cross.
    I read an article quite recently about the Souval factory were it was admitted that awards were still being produced up until at least the 1970s so why cease production of a lucrative sideline.

    As you mention these Crosses are not that expensive but they are an attractive piece of memorabilia and for my part the amount of work that goes in to them they are well worth the money.

    What I am looking for at the moment are any crosses that are so badly damaged and are not worthy to be collected so that I can deconstruct them to see how they were put together.
    I agree with you that they are an attractive piece to collect. I was unaware of the continued production of these after the war. Maybe that explains why some of those that look so fantastically well preserved. The gold example I have is not bright and shiny as many I see, and that concerned me as I thought it could be a fake. However, then it would seem that all those looking like they were just made would be the fakes. It was disconcerting, especially since that was the first purchase in my small collection and I really was hoping it to be genuine. Even with a makers mark, as we all know, it is no guarantee of authenticity, but at least it can be compared to known examples that are proven to be genuine.
    I look forward to seeing what your research develops. Good post and an excellent collection!

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    Interesting thread.
    Here's a pic of a badly damaged bronze award. Note it looks like it has different designs of pebbling below the round and again different below the white stripes and blue. I would give you it mate but its got a kinda sentimental effect on me as it and a iron cross were the first medals I ever bought and they were from a vets son. Hope it may help a little. Click image for larger version. 

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    Best of luck with your research
    Rod

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    Thank you all for your input so far.
    The amount of time that I can put in to in depth research is fairly small but I try my best.
    Rod that is a great piece and it is items like that I am looking for so I can remove the front disc to look at the various mounting methods.
    Here below are some varying examples (thanks to the owners)
    As can be seen there is a particular way that the front disc can be fitted so that it is always in the correct position with the TT in MUTTER always level with the bottom arm of the cross.

    In my opinion a lot of the forgeries that are knocking about have a blank cross and blank backed disc with allows the disc to be placed in an incorrect position. So spotting anything out of line would be a big red flag.

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    Here is a cross and disc with quite a complex mounting system:

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    These don't come up very often on dealer sites due to the low resale value which is a great pity.

    All the best
    Doug

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