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Fine detective work there, chaps..
If I may veer off topic for a moment (with sincere apologies), this perfectly highlights my contempt for the arbitrary ‘type’ systems that are in irritatingly common use:
Marcel: Btw, it is a Type 6 variant 6.2.
32Artillery: I'd class it as a Type 3, option 2, variety 5.
(“We are both on the money, just using different references”).
We could all introduce our own type systems and end up with a complete mess, but all be content in their ‘correctness’.
I understand the will (and indeed, the need) to differentiate and identify the many variations, but to me, without a logical and chronologically-based plan (or better still, documentary evidence of makers and dates), they are just arbitrary lists created by collectors/authors. As here, wildly conflicting and confusing the issue..
Anyway, gripe over! Just had to vent it.
Back on topic.. my apologies again.
All the very best to all and stay well,
Bob
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05-28-2020 09:48 AM
# ADS
Circuit advertisement
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for clarity, when I say 'could go either way' I mean 99% it is long service, not 100%, not that it is 50/50....
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More information on this Group:
This MZPP Red Star was for long service. The Record Card, which shows the long service decree date 30 April 1947. The 3rd page of Yakovenko's Bravery Medal citation shows that his original recommendation for a Red Star was downgraded.
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Translation of Record Card:
Record Card
Order Booklet 887779
1. Last Name: Yakovenko
2. First name and patronymic: Pyotr Dorofeevich
3. Military rank: Lieutenant-Colonel
4. Sex: Male
5. Year of brith: 1911
6. Place of Birth: city of Sevastopol, Borodinskaya Street 31
7. Party membership: Member of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks since 1942
8. Education: elementary
9. Nationality: Russian
10. In the Red Army since: May 1931
11. Place of service (name of unit) and position occupied at the time of awarding: 772nd Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment, 35th Anti-Aircraft Division, 37th Army. Regiment commander.
12. Place of service and position at the present time: 2512th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment, 19th Mechanized Division. Deputy commander of combat forces.
13. Home address of the awardee: Kiev Oblast, Boyarka Station, Kievskaya Street 43
[Page 2]
14. List of all awards received
[Table columns from left to right]
Name of the Orders and Medals
Their Numbers
Document Numbers
Basis for Awarding
Medal For Bravery
121892
temporary certificate 163822
Decree of the 47th Army #0589 of 01.12.1942
Order of the Red Banner
94674
temporary certificate L [possibly “A”] 218798
Decree of the 37th Army #0160/n of 06.11.1943
Order of the Patriotic War 1st Class
82125
temporary certificate 404388
Decree of the 37th Army #0161/n of 07.09.1944
Medal For Combat Service
2262154
temporary certificate 191111
Decree [of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet] of 03.11.1944
[Medal] For the Defense of the Caucasus
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temporary certificate A-038252
Decree [of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet] of 01.05.1944
Medal For Victory Over Germany
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temporary certificate B-0105247
Decree [of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet] of 09.05.1945
[Order of the] Red Star
2289372
Order booklet 877779
Decree [of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet] of 30.04.1947
[Order of the] Red Banner
411217
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Decree [of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet] of 30.04.1954
[Medal for the] 30th Anniversary of the Soviet Army and Navy
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Signature of the awardee [signed]
I affirm the accuracy of this information and the signature of the awardee
Commander of the 2512th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment Colonel Palshin [signed & stamped]
24 October, 1946
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I think it's pretty clear that the Red Star is a long service award from 1947, which doesn't have a citation. The citations you posted are for his Medal for Courage (a Red Star recommendation that was subsequently downgraded) from December 1942 and his Red Banner from December 1943.
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by
Kohima
If I may veer off topic for a moment (with sincere apologies), this perfectly highlights my contempt for the arbitrary ‘type’ systems that are in irritatingly common use:
Marcel: Btw, it is a Type 6 variant 6.2.
32Artillery: I'd class it as a Type 3, option 2, variety 5.
(“We are both on the money, just using different references”).
We could all introduce our own type systems and end up with a complete mess, but all be content in their ‘correctness’.
I understand the will (and indeed, the need) to differentiate and identify the many variations, but to me, without a logical and chronologically-based plan (or better still, documentary evidence of makers and dates), they are just arbitrary lists created by collectors/authors. As here, wildly conflicting and confusing the issue..
Anyway, gripe over! Just had to vent it.
Back on topic.. my apologies again.
That's a very good point. In Russia particularly it seems to be surprisingly common to keep introducing new classification systems, which unfortunately are never compatible with the existing ones. Ideally, if somebody refers to a certain type and variation, they should always add the classification system they used.
It would be even better if all collectors could agree on one 'definite' classification system for Soviet awards, but that doesn't seem to be feasible. Some people think classification systems should be primarily based on different makers, others consider major visual differences to be the determining factor, and others still prefer the types to be divided in strict chronological order. There doesn't even seem to consensus about what the difference between a 'type' and a 'variation' actually is, and if differences between pieces - even minute differences - always necessarily mean you're dealing with different 'variations' (I personally don't think a worn die, a manufacturing defect, or miniscule differences resulting from the manual way in which parts of decorations were assembled justify branding it a new 'variation', but some collectors disagree).
Anyway, rant over on my side as well ;-)
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