Research on Order of Glory?

[mauriziods]

Hello all:

I am a new member to this forum, and to the pass time of historical collecting. Not too long ago (about 2 weeks actually), I had the opportunity to acquire an Order of Glory, 2nd class, from an eBay member. The seller had a perfect rating, and significant history, so I took the gamble and acquired the piece. When I got it, it looked a bit too good to be true; it was in perfect shape, a high number (44,000+), and I had a very difficult time categorizing it. There is no doubt that it is not a forgery, as anyone who can do this kind of work would not waste their time on a fake order for a couple hundred dollars. My opinion is that it is possibly a re-issue to someone who had a medal, and lost it.

I was wondering how research works, in general, for documenting Soviet regalia. Are there companies or individuals who are experts, and possess the data, or access to the data that would tell me about this order, and advertise as such on the 'net? If so, what would one pay for a service of this nature, assuming that such information requires more than a few keystrokes on a computer to locate? Or, do individuals exist who pursue such data as a hobby, and make it available publicly as a service to their discipline, and perhaps might ask for a donation to keep their efforts alive? I have learned about this pass time at a meteoric rate, but I have reached a point where the experiences of others have begun to be my best sources of guidance.

I thank all in advance who might see fit to drop me a reply.

Maurizio

[Dom]

Hello ,

Before a research can be confirmed if the Order is original.
The 2nd class are many rigged .

[Bill Garvy]

Welcome, 'tis a slippery slope. . . Please post high resolution photographs/scans of your Order of Glory. I must agree with the assessment of my esteemed colleague above. Let's not get the cart before the horse; there would be little sense in researching an award that turned out to be reproduction.

[mauriziods]

Welcome, 'tis a slippery slope. . . Please post high resolution photographs/scans of your Order of Glory. I must agree with the assessment of my esteemed colleague above. Let's not get the cart before the horse; there would be little sense in researching an award that turned out to be reproduction.

Thank you, Dom, and thank you Bill, for your replies to my message. I attach two images of the best resolution that I can acquire. A few things that confused me were as follows;
1) the thin double border around the "CCCP" on the back of the order. I have not seen this thin border on class 2s, only on class 3s, and even then, only on variants 9 and 10, late issues.
2) the sharp edges on the letters "CCCP"; again, i have only seen these features on class 3 medals, variants 9 and 10, as the class 2 orders have the letters stamped with angled or beveled edges. I attach an example of what I mean, along with the two images of my order. The image titled "BevelledSlava" is the reference image.
3) The ribbon has most likely never been handled. I work in forensic research, and under a microscope, fibers which have never been handled tend to show almost knife-like edges where they have been cut by the manufacturing devices, whereas worn fibers tend to show microscopic fraying, or at the very least, a rounding of the points where production machinery cut them to size. No rounding or fraying to speak of exists at any point on the ribbon.
4) Time on the clock; the time, though hard to see, (9:00) corresponds to that of a, once again, class 3 order, variant 9 or 10, late issue. I have not seen this time with this hand style on a class 2 order.


The issue that confuses me is based on data from a friend of mine, who happens to be a little old man in the Ukranian town of Melitopol who is very familiar with Soviet Regalia. He stated that re-issues are made with tooling that is available at the time of the re-issue; if the original order was made from tooling that was replaced 40 years ago, that tooling will certainly NOT be duplicated to make the new order look like the old one. He also stated that while re-issues are supposed to be stamped with the letter "D", that step is often omitted, and regalia leaves the hands of the maker without that important information being stamped on the medal.

Visually, the order is stunning. If this is a forgery, the forgerer can make MUCH more money counterfeiting American currency, as the detail on this piece is very impressive. If it DOES turn out to be a fake, I will be forever grateful to the gracious individuals who have seen fit to guide me at no real profit for themsleves. Since I acquired the piece only 2-3 weeks ago, I still have a few more days to file a claim with eBay and paypal. The final suspicion came from the seller; despite desmonstrating much knowledge about the history of the order of Glory, this person claimed that they knew nothing at all about this item - as if they had picked it up on a whim. Given how specialized these orders are, I doubt many people would plunk out money for an OOG they know NOTHING about. Sounds like science fiction to me.....................

Thank you all for your ideas, opinions, wisdom, and guidance.

Maurizio

[Dom]

Please take Mondvor as reference : Орден СЛАВЫ - 2

[mauriziods]

[QUOTE=Dom;866605]Please take Mondvor as reference :

Thank you Dom; it turns out that we used the same reference image!

So, can I assume that my order is a blatant fake? The letters are shaped wrong, and the rings are the wrong thickness.

OR...

Are such slight departures between orders simply the result of being minted at different locations? Both my order and the one in the image that Dom and I used are numbered in the high 40,000 +. While I can read some Russian, I am not completely fluent with documents written in the Cyrillic alphabet, so I cannot understand what the text at Mondvor is saying.

Can we get an arbitrator to issue an educated opinion? ; )

Thanks again to Dom, and all who weigh in.

Maurizio

[Bill Garvy]

These orders, in many respects, are really above my pay grade, and certainly beyond the scope of my collective experience, but given the similarities you have drawn between your example and other 3rd Class Orders, your evidence, to my way of thinking, does not convince and is, at best, inconclusive. That being said, I will defer to the wisdom of more experienced members of the collective. I am not the last word on the matter by any means, ahem. . . Gentlemen, please continue your discussion.

[Auke]

The serial number is not at all as it should be. The engraving is not done in a wartime style. At best, this is a duplicate. I haven't handled many Glory 2s, so I hope more knowledgeable members such as Marc will chime in...

[Bill Garvy]

Order of Glory, 2nd Class, #44146, would have been awarded late 1944/early 1945. I have sent Marc a personal message for this example soliciting his best thinking. In my years of collecting I have only had two researched 2nd Class Orders of Glory, one of which I needed to have authenticated by Alexi just to make sure. For the time being I'll limit my experience to what I know. . .

[mauriziods]

The serial number is not at all as it should be. The engraving is not done in a wartime style. At best, this is a duplicate. I haven't handled many Glory 2s, so I hope more knowledgeable members such as Marc will chime in...

Auke:

Thank you for your input! I agree completely; the font style of the "CCCP" letters, the thickness of the rear "CCCP" rings, and the style of the clock hands on the tower, all scream late-issue Order of Glory. The fibers on the ribbon (SEM images which I now regret not having saved) are next to brand-new, and the metal in the supporting polygon shows almost no effect of time. In my opinion strictly as a forensic examiner, this order was recently produced, and is, as Auke has stated, a re-issue at best. As I said in my opening post, if one has the skill to forge items like this one, they could put those skills to better use forging more valuable items, so I think it likely that it is a true re-issue. Also of interest, is the value of such an item, as this is territory that is completely uncharted for me.

Thank you for your input!

Maurizio