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can you tell me what ive found

Article about: hi,ive been to monte camino in Italy and found these on the floor can any of you please take the time and tell me what they are Many thanks Adam

  1. #1

    Default can you tell me what ive found

    hi,ive been to monte camino in Italy and found these on the floor can any of you please take the time and tell me what they are
    Many thanks AdamClick image for larger version. 

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  2. #2

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    Hi Adam,

    The first two images are the remains of a rifle or machine gun bullet that has struck a solid object. What remains is the torn open copper jacket of the bullet and some of the (mostly lead) core. The linear marks are caused by the rifling grooves in the barrell when the round is fired and the squashed (formerly) circular aperture is the back of the bullet through which you can see the lead. From the appearance I say rifle rather than pistol because of the relative dimensions. A pistol round is much more stubby and short. Obviously, there is no scale indication here but it is likely that the calibre is something like .303 inch or 7.92 mm or similar. High velocity rounds end up looking like this even from striking sand.

    As for the other item I can't really say but it looks to me like it is probably the remains of a fuse from the nose of a shell. Other members may be more specific.

    I hope this helps

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  3. #3

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    Hi Mark,thanks for the reply,do you think the first two pics could be from a thompson machine gun
    thanks again

  4. #4

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    Quote by rabbitface View Post
    Hi Mark,thanks for the reply,do you think the first two pics could be from a thompson machine gun
    thanks again
    It looks too long to be a 45 acp (Thompson) bullet!....
    It's a wasted trip baby. Nobody said nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.



    I'm Spartacus, not really i'm Paul!...

  5. #5

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    Quote by Gunny Hartmann View Post
    It looks too long to be a 45 acp (Thompson) bullet!....
    Beat me to it Gunny!

    Adam,

    Even with the absence of a scale reference this is clearly a round with dimensions that are long and slim relative to each other whereas the .45 inch ACP round of the Thompson is short and stubby by comparison. The .45 ACP is in fact the same round used in the famous Colt M1911 .45 Automatic pistol.
    Compared to a rifle round it is a big fat slug which makes up for lower velocity with projectile mass. A short range round but a very dangerous one to be in receipt of!

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  6. #6

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    The other piece seems to me to be the nose cap off a mortar shell, though what exact type I don't know.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  7. #7

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    Quote by rabbitface View Post
    Hi Mark,thanks for the reply,do you think the first two pics could be from a thompson machine gun
    thanks again
    Im pretty sure thats an 30-06 bullet.

    Correcting myself, i meant .303.
    Last edited by LeonardoL; 09-17-2015 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Wrong
    Ex username - DTVPKING

    My dream - pink hue DAK M35/40 and a Jon Lord spec C3

  8. #8

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    Quote by LeonardoL View Post
    Im pretty sure thats an 30-06 bullet.

    Correcting myself, i meant .303.
    Without forensic examination it could be either.

    30-06 Springfield or 7.62mm x 63mm .303 inch or 7.7mm x 56mm would both look very similar in this condition as would the 7.92mm x 57mm Mauser (.318 inch) when all we see is the projectile which is pretty banged up. To really tell the difference one would need to measure the number and pitch of the marks left by the rifling amongst other factors.

    In this case it is probably easier to consider where it was found and the weapons used by the armies fighting there. As this location was contested by German, British and US troops it is still a bit difficult.

    Going back to the original question the best answer is likely simply it is a WWII rifle or MG projectile from the Italian campaign.

    As for the other fragment I agree it is likely from a mortar but I really couldn't say which from this pic.

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  9. #9

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    Quote by Watchdog View Post
    Without forensic examination it could be either.

    30-06 Springfield or 7.62mm x 63mm .303 inch or 7.7mm x 56mm would both look very similar in this condition as would the 7.92mm x 57mm Mauser (.318 inch) when all we see is the projectile which is pretty banged up. To really tell the difference one would need to measure the number and pitch of the marks left by the rifling amongst other factors.

    In this case it is probably easier to consider where it was found and the weapons used by the armies fighting there. As this location was contested by German, British and US troops it is still a bit difficult.

    Going back to the original question the best answer is likely simply it is a WWII rifle or MG projectile from the Italian campaign.

    As for the other fragment I agree it is likely from a mortar but I really couldn't say which from this pic.

    Regards

    Mark

    Yes. I was thinking .303 because the way it is "connected" to the casing, and the height on the mark. Found quite lot of all of them but yes, its a longshot.

    Cheers
    Ex username - DTVPKING

    My dream - pink hue DAK M35/40 and a Jon Lord spec C3

  10. #10

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    Quote by LeonardoL View Post
    Yes. I was thinking .303 because the way it is "connected" to the casing, and the height on the mark. Found quite lot of all of them but yes, its a longshot.

    Cheers
    That's a keen observation and I think you are right to make the point about the milled ring.

    I have to say that I don't know for sure if the Mauser rounds had this in any variant but as far as I recall I don't think so. It's hard to tell if this relic was a boat tail or not because of distortion but the .303 in British and Commonwealth use had the milled ring and so did (certainly some) the US 30-06 and your are right that the distance from the rear of the projectile was different so you make a good point. I still wouldn't like to bet on it from these pics but well spotted with younger eyes I think!!! So, most likely an allied round.

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

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