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Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

Article about: Hello!! I just got this one for the collection. It was \\$125, very fair I think, for these elusive F1 grenades. I wanted one with an original Kovesnikov fuse, and got one here, BUT, there is

  1. #1

    Default Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    Hello!! I just got this one for the collection. It was $125, very fair I think, for these elusive F1 grenades. I wanted one with an original Kovesnikov fuse, and got one here, BUT, there is a little issue I need opinions on.

    The fuse is an original fuse. The threads are sharp and original sized, but, when screwed into this grenade body, it is quite loose and does not seem the correct thread size. Also there is a space on top on each side that does not seal quite complete when screwed in. Where there 2 different sized Koveshnikov fuses?? Anyone know?? Was there a washer used originally???

    I have seen Koveshnikov fuses that have a fully round base, that do not have the 2 flat cuts on each side like this one. Early or late model fuses???? What does the "224" and the crlliylic "u" mean, or stand for??? Anyone know????

    The next question is: Is this a Russian F1 body?? it is marked as seen in pic "B4" It also has a steel, not lead plug in the bottom. I have read, and seen pics of early Russian F1's that had plugs on bottom. I know the later F1's had the solid bottoms.

    Could this be a Russian fuse with a French F1 body? Anyone know? I have never handled both in person, and they look very similar.
    Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Steve
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  2. #2
    ?

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    Looks like a nice and early F 1, the fuse as is and nothing wrong if the fuse sit's deeper. The fuses difference is only the factory difference, not a year. First Soviet F1 is a absolut the same copies of French F1, Koveshnikov designed his fuses for F! French grenades, their shells was sent to the Russia in the 1917-19 years by Antanta, due of that Soviets begins to fill them with TNT. ( as the same story as with 7.62 TT cartridgem they was a milllions in the stock from a Mauser 7.63)
    Regards,
    Dimas

    my Skype: warrelics

  3. #3

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    Quote by Dimas View Post
    Looks like a nice and early F 1, the fuse as is and nothing wrong if the fuse sit's deeper. The fuses difference is only the factory difference, not a year. First Soviet F1 is a absolut the same copies of French F1, Koveshnikov designed his fuses for F! French grenades, their shells was sent to the Russia in the 1917-19 years by Antanta, due of that Soviets begins to fill them with TNT. ( as the same story as with 7.62 TT cartridgem they was a milllions in the stock from a Mauser 7.63)
    Hello Dimas!! Thanks, you have told me information I have never read in my research.
    If I understand you right, during WWI, the French made Russia's grenade bodies? I would think with all that we (the US) used, along with how many the French used, they would have very few for Russia during WWI. It is said we used the French F1 Frag as a rough pattern for our early MkI grenade.

    I do not understand when you say " by Antanta" what is Antanta?

    "due of that Soviets begins to fill them with TNT"

    If they used TNT as a filler, then they must have used a detonator, and not an igniter with the Koveshnikov fuses.

    Did Soviet F1's always use TNT as the filler?

    I do not understand about what you say with Tokarev and Broomhandle Mauser ammo, were they also filled with TNT? I hope not!! : ) Are you saying they were interchangable?

    Did all the early F1's like this one have a steel filler plug on bottom, or were some grenades fitted with lead plugs?

    When you say "early" how early are you talking about, 1920's-
    30's?? About what time did they switch to a solid bottom?

    Did F1's have any type or washer on the fuse, similar to what a US MkII "pineapple" has?

    Do you have any idea what the "224" and the other"U" type letter/ marking is on the back of the fuse handle?

    Do you have any idea what the "B4" cast into the body translates to? Is it a factory or lot number? It does not look like Russian lettering/ numbers. What do you think, have you ever seen a F1 marked like this one?
    That is why I thought it might be French, along also with the sloppy fitting fuse. It is probably not the original fuse that it left the factory with I think. It must have been changed in the past.

    Do you have any good pics of other original F1's?

    Thanks for any more info you can give Dimas, I will pass it on to fellow collectors. Sorry for all the questions, and long post, I like to know all I can about my grenade collection.

    Regards, Steve

  4. #4

    Default Re: Anyone Know More Info??? Pics Russian F1 Grenade

    Hello!! Anyone??? There must be more answers and info from the experts?

    Regards, Steve

  5. #5
    ?

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    I mean the soviets begin the production of the Tokarev ammo, due of the guns was projected for Mauser ammo, they millions was in stocks.
    Antanta is USA-Britain-France union in the time of civil war in Russia.
    The Koveshnikov fuse has ignitor+ detonator.
    Pre war grenades made in 30-40 was filled with TNT, ( Rdutlov grenades has some special charge in detonator area filled with extrimelly dangerous Pikrin acid.
    The war time made "Voroshilovsky Kilogramm" was filled with some kind of bad explosive, made in blockaded leningrad. That is the anti tank grenade, bigger than RPG 40 and in wight of 1 kilo

    Did all the early F1's like this one have a steel filler plug on bottom, or were some grenades fitted with lead plugs?
    Keen both types
    Do you have any idea what the "224" and the other"U" type letter/ marking is on the back of the fuse handle?
    I think batch number
    Do you have any idea what the "B4" cast into the body translates to? Is it a factory or lot number? It does not look like Russian lettering/ numbers. What do you think, have you ever seen a F1 marked like this one?
    I newer saw the grenades with such markings, even French. But lettering is ok in cirrilic is V4
    Regards,
    Dimas

    my Skype: warrelics

  6. #6
    ?

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    Here is the example I found myself in about 10 km from my house, where in 1941 year was some fightings between the units of german 61 division and soviet building units of Baltic fleet
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    Regards,
    Dimas

    my Skype: warrelics

  7. #7

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    Hello Dimas!! Thank you for more detailed information.

    "The Koveshnikov fuse has ignitor+ detonator" ??

    Does that mean that they used both, depending on what filler was used in the grenade, like American MkII grenades?

    Our WW2 US M6A4C type WW2 fuses used a detonator, and was a "detonating" fuse design used only with TNT filled grenades.
    Our M10A1, A2, A3 fuses were "igniting" fuses, only used with EC blank powder filled grenades. EC ( Explosives Co.) blank powder, is the same as smokeless gunpowder used in rifle pistol ammo.

    Did the soviets use a detonator, no matter what explosive the grenade was filled with?

    When you said "they used both" were you meaning the delay fuse length, or the delay pellet or other??

    It appears that your grenade has a lead plug on the bottom, true?? It is very nice Dimas, I wish I could go 20-30 miles from my home and find an F1 grenade!! It looks in very nice condition, and has a good look that me as a collector like very much.

    If you notice, it has an earlier style fuse. The base is fully round, and yours the handle/cap is supposed to fly off. With my style fuse, it has a couple slots cut on each side that let the cap come up far enough to fire the cap, but keeps the handle/cap from coming off completely. Very interesting small features. I will still continue to look for a nice example or your style fuse. They both seem to be a little difficult to find these days as you know. Glad I found this one. One to go!

    Regards, steve

  8. #8

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    On some Russian forums about 1940 Finnish-Russian war, there is information about captured F1 grenades from Polish Army in 1939, Polish Army had large supplies of these, and Russians employed them against Finns, but the thread on Russian F1 was smaller than on the Polish/French F1. In that article it is stated that because of this Russians Koveshnikov fuses were loose on these grenades, and they were used with this incompatibility, so the body of this grenade is IMHO certainly not Soviet, it looks like a Polish I saw from WW1, the markings don't look Soviet, usually Soviet were marked with some graphical representations of the ammunition factories, the Polish one I saw had a marking simmillar to that on your grenade, another element that doesn't look typical for Russian F1 is the bolt screwed in the bottom of the grenade , for me it looks more WW1. Romanians also used F1 grenades against Russians in WW2, Romanians used the same fuse and body like Poles. So the body of this example could be Polish, French from WW1 or Romanian, the fuse is Russian. Hope it helps, if you need the article in Russian let me know, I had saved the link somewhere. To know it for sure look if you can find anything about the marking, there lies the answer.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    Very interesting information decebalus...thanks for sharing what you've learned about F1 grenades. **** decebalus ***....yes, please post link you have

    That B4 marked F1 grenade I showed back in 2009 that I was very eager to learn about, was my first "WW2 era" F1, and also my first Russian WW2 grenade, this is why the 1000 questions I asked With the help from Dimas, and many other ordnance collectors & people like yourself, I've learned quite a bit more since then. Inert ordnance collectors are very fine group of people, and I've made some good friends.

    I believe the B4 marked F1 body is most probably French made. I still have this grenade, but since starting in 2007 to collect INERT WW2 grenades & mines of all countries, I've acquired quite a few more Soviet F1's and other Russian grenades... RG-42's, RPG-40 & 43, RPG-6, early & late RGD-33's & a few A/P mines and a very nice Russian TM-35 A/T mine. I have great interest in the Red Army grenades and mines, and always looking for them....there's so many types, and I think they are much harder to find than German and other countries items.

    Unfortunately...or fortunately depending on your point of view, I got a little bit hooked on collecting WW2 inert ordnance, all started by just one MkII US pineapple grenade I bought to display with my WW2 gun collection... Then I realized I "needed" a German M24 stick grenade...and then a Japanese Type 97....and then ....and then.......you can get the idea...
    Here's a few pics the ordnance collectors might enjoy
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    Last edited by Kilroy Was Here; 02-17-2012 at 01:43 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Pics Russian F1 War Time Grenade?? Possible French F1??

    Great large collection of Grenades, Steve. I like your
    selection of American models.........!
    Regards,


    Steve.

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