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Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

Article about: Hi all just thought I would show off a couple of rifle grenades. The mills was 150, the relic no 24 was found on Redan ridge and the other no 24 was 36. Also I would like to know if anyone

  1. #1
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    Default Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Hi all just thought I would show off a couple of rifle grenades. The mills was 150, the relic no 24 was found on Redan ridge and the other no 24 was 36.

    Also I would like to know if anyone knew of any disused grenade ranges or manuals/photos or plans of ww1 grenade and rifle grenade ranges, such as what range did they have? What targets did they fire at? What did they fire from, trench or platform ect? Also was there any difference between regular blanks and rifle grenade blanks?
    Pictured below are 2 blanks dated 14 and 15 with E and V11 marked on each 1, found in a trench facing up a hill, 350m up the hill there are a few trenches craters ect could this be a rifle grenade range? any help much appreciated.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    The only mention I can find of a blank with the marking E MK VII 1T describes it as Cartridge,Discharger,Black Powder,so could be for grenade launching. Actually on the list it just says E Mk 1T,post a photo of the headstamp. After another search it says they are used in rifles Mk 1 and Mk 2 drill.
    Last edited by zwerge; 12-28-2011 at 04:58 PM.
    JEDEM DAS SEINE

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Here`s a photo of some grenade cartridges with one marked E.
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    JEDEM DAS SEINE

  4. #4

    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    I beleive the Blanks and Grenade blanks were made from rejected .303 cases intended for live rounds. So the VII relates to the MkVII .303 round. The grenade blanks charge was known as ballastite.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Hey mate.
    Cool collection.
    I got this ammo for free off a guy who I bought a Sam Browne belt off.
    Always wanted to know what the rounds looked like.
    Thanks zwerge.
    I was told range was 50-60m, but don't take that as fact.
    Cheers

    Danger
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Rich

    There are plenty of ranges around the country, many official, many unofficial. The official ones would invariably have a bye-law governing their use. These are an excellent source of information on where ranges were situated. Link below.

    Ministry of Defence | MicroSite | Defence Infrastructure Organisation | Our Publications | Byelaws

    One word of warning though. All ranges that have active bye-laws, or ones that are being reviewed, you should not remove items from. This is because all items within the range are the property of the MoD. Every bye-law states that 'no shot, shell, projectile or pieces of the same should be searched for or removed from the range'. I know a couple of people who have fallen foul of these laws and had a visit from the military and civilian police. So before you go to any range, check there are no active bye-laws covering it, otherwise it is pointless going.

    Cheers

    Steve T

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Well. there is more than a little to sort out in this thread!

    First, to Rich89's original post. The fired cases you show are both ordinary training blanks. You can see by the necks that originally they were rosette crimped, and all WWI grenade discharging cartridges had open necks.

    There is a world of difference between training blanks and Grenade discharging blanks. It is all to do with the burning rate of the powder. If you tried to launch a grenade with a training blank it would probably blow up the rifle.

    The "E" in the headstamps is the code for Eley Brothers and the cases are made from reject Mark VII ball cases as has already been pointed out. That "E" is nothing to do with the "E" in "E Mark IT", where the "E" is the code for a smoke generator discharger from armoured vehicles and the "T" indicates it is loaded with Black powder. The E Mark IT was only used for a very short period in the 1930s and no example with that headstamp is known to survive today.

    Although the very early grenade discharging blanks in WWI were simply Ball rounds with the bullet removed, specialist rounds were soon developed for firing different grenades. The rounds with the top half blackened are the "Cartridge S.A. .303 inch Rifle Grenade 30 Grains Ballistite Mark I" wihich changed in 1927 to "... .303 inch H Mark Iz" and was used for launching No.23 and other grenades form the cup discharger. Rounds with the whole case blackened are for rodded grenades and became the H Mark II after the 1927 changes in nomenclature.

    The range of rifle projected greandes was considerable, ranges of 300 yards being obtained depending on the grenade.

    Picture shows various early grenade blanks and then a couple of my own rifle grenades.

    Regards
    TonyE
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    British Military Smallarms and Ammunition
    Collector, Researcher and Pedant
    https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Thanks Tony,I was hoping you would sort this out...Pete.
    JEDEM DAS SEINE

  9. #9

    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Great info Tony

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Rifle grenade, ranges and ammo info please

    Moving on from the H Mark I and II I described in my previous post, the H Mark III was an Indian version of the H Mark I, but loaded with cordite as this was more stable in tropical climes.

    The H Mark IV (and IVz) is a bit more complicated. The British H Mk.4 (post 1944 the Roman Mark numbers were changed to Indo-arabic) was a Britsih made blank for launching the No.85 Grenade from the No.5 rifle. However, the Australians also introduced a H Mark 4 for launching the grenade from No.1 and No.4 rifles and so had a heavier charge of cordite. Both the British and Australian versions were closed with a rosette crimp and often had a red closing seal.

    The H Mark 5 was an Indian and Pakistani cordite loaded version of the H Mark 4 and also had the red closure. Then there was an Indian Carbine H Mark V, but again no known examples exist. Because there were two Mark 5s, the H Mark 6 was omitted and the next round was the H Mark 7z for launching the Energa grenade form the No.4 rifle.

    All the H Mark 7z were made by FN, the earliest (1950) had plain brass cases but the later ones (1951 and later) had the lower half lacquered black. That was the last of the .303 Grenade discharging blanks.

    Picture shows (l. to r.):
    British H Mark 4z
    Australian H Mark 4
    Early FN H Mark 7z
    Later FN H Mark 7z

    Also picture of FN H Mark 7z packet label.

    Regards
    TonyE
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    British Military Smallarms and Ammunition
    Collector, Researcher and Pedant
    https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/

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