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Shell Identification / Story Authenticity

Article about: Hi All, Just writing in to see if anyone can help with identifying these shells a little bit better and to help with the authenticity. I recently purchased these shells on ebay. It was sold

  1. #1
    Ark
    Ark is offline
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    Default Shell Identification / Story Authenticity

    Hi All,

    Just writing in to see if anyone can help with identifying these shells a little bit better and to help with the authenticity.
    I recently purchased these shells on ebay. It was sold as being used in Gallipoli by Anzac once displayed in the Whitehall Theatre Of War in London. The chap who sold me them said he was a friend of Paul Raymond and was given a great deal of relics by him after it closed down. There are 4 French shells and 1 British.

    I now have some doubt over the authenticity of the story of the shells, Gallipoli, Whitehall Theatre Of War etc. After receiving them I started to polish them, which was when I discovered a French newspaper stuffed down the bottom of a French shell. Why would a French newspaper dated 1991 be inside a French shell that was supposedly used in Gallipoli, displayed in the ‘White Hall Theatre Of War’, which closed in 1985.. ending up in someone’s collection in the UK since?

    Any help or wisdom that someone can pass on would be much appreciated.

    French Shells:

    75 DEC ^ RS L2279 16 Rs

    75 DEC MAM 937L 17 Bo

    75 DEC D 938L 15 D +T

    75 DEC PDPs 843L 18 H


    2 x 23cm Height
    2 x 35cm Height


    British:

    1916 S CF MRY 68A M.L.W (A). 18PR II. N 17 5 16. S.

    Primer: L 11/1.7 N II

    29.5cm Height.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2

    Default

    Hi Ark,
    I saw the 18pr on ebay and thought it looked good, until I noticed he had loads of them, all marked in the same way. It struck me as odd so I decided not to bid as the chances of so many cases, French and British turning up with the same markings is remote to say the least. I cant see how anything dated post 1916 can relate to Gallipoli and the primer on the 18 pounder cart is dated 1917, as for the French carts..... The only trench art I have seen has been engraved by hand and the cases you have look acid etched. I cant see the British using French Artillery in Gallipoli either. I would love to be proved wrong but I am not holding my breath.....
    Cheers
    Gary

  3. #3

    Default

    the Gallipoli campaign official ended January of 1916.

    2 of the stamps denote manufacture 1917 and 1918.

    I may be wrong but I have a very basic knowledge on case markings on WW1 cases

    there may be some pictures around of the museum before it closed or descriptions of items in the collection. This was all probably split up at auction when the museum folded.

    my random 2 cents

    - - ------- - -

    the Gallipoli campaign official ended January of 1916.

    2 of the stamps denote manufacture 1917 and 1918.

    I may be wrong but I have a very basic knowledge on case markings on WW1 cases

    there may be some pictures around of the museum before it closed or descriptions of items in the collection. This was all probably split up at auction when the museum folded.

    my random 2 cents

  4. #4

    Default

    I think Gary is right i think none of these cases have been anywhere near Gallipoli just tarted up cases to sell for more money than they are worth

  5. #5

    Default

    I think you can take the story with a pinch of salt,if its the person I think he took Paul Raymond for thousands,because Mr Raymond did not have a clue about militaria.

  6. #6
    Ark
    Ark is offline
    ?

    Default

    Many Thanks chaps much appreciated. Just helping to confirm something I suspected. I think the guy is a bit of swindler pawning things off
    with a story to help sell the item. Putting anzac on an item will do that.
    I think there were French near Anzac cove with artillery Gary but the fact remains the markings on the casings are from the wrong period.
    Id hazard to guess but if there were any souvenirs collected by the anzacs they went back with the wounded to Australia were they would remain.
    The fit and able were sent to the Middle East and western fronts for the rest of the war to fight. To carry around souvenirs from Gallipoli on the Somme
    for years let alone survive it would be a bit of an ask… I think for the survivors the patches on their shoulders, a diary with a few postcards and letters
    from home was an achievement to keep.

  7. #7
    Ark
    Ark is offline
    ?

    Default

    Hi All,

    Many thanks to those that got in contact with me re the shells/Casings/Ammo, personally via email and
    on this thread.

    Yes they are frauds ! I am happy to report that I have received all my money back
    from ebay. It took a lot of time, effort and stress to do this, back and forth from paypal
    to ebay back to pay pal then ebay again. I have reported him to the police and gave all the
    information I know.

    Sadly yes he is still operating again on ebay, hocking the same old story with the same olds etchings
    on various items.
    I would stay clear of anyone selling items claiming to be from the Paul Raymonds Whitehall Theatre Of War.
    The story has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

    Especially.
    Sam Millins.
    Operating under: 2010samwilliams & also uk-malone

    There is also another chap who is selling items claiming to be from the Whitehall Theatre Of War,
    which I have just noticed the Whitehall section that was on the site has been newly taken down.

    google: The Curios Of Captain Leader

    Coincidentally he to is also located in East Sussex near Sam and is selling items reputed to be from the Whitehall Museum.
    Item: Air Marshal Sir Arthur Coningham, KCB, KBE, DSO, MC, DFC, AFC, RAF.

    This same exact same item was sold on ebay over a year ago by the same chap
    who sold me the shells - 2010samwilliams.

    If they are linked or not I cannot confirm !


    Once again many thanks to all those for taking the time to respond. Lets keep our
    eyes peeled !

    Best

    Ark


    Latest fraud listing

    WW1 Trench Art Anzac Gallipoli Collection Tin | eBay

  8. #8

    Default

    Hi Ark,
    Glad you got your money back. Well done for persisting. Its thanks to forums like this that people can question the authenticity of what is being sold, be it in a Militaria shop or on ebay and benefit from the wealth of knowledge out there.
    Thanks for letting us know.
    Cheers
    Gary

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