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Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

Article about: Hello all, Here is a what I think is a bronze Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval. It is marked R.S. on the back. Sadly the catch has been pushed down to where you can no longer move

  1. #11

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Quote by rbminis View Post
    This might help in showing the flaw.
    Ralph.
    Nice one Ralph, both flaws JB and I alluded to are easily apparent on your pic!
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

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  3. #12
    ?

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Ned, were those faked directly after the war?

  4. #13

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    They are faked today!
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  5. #14
    ?

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Quote by big ned View Post
    They are faked today!

    I assumed as much! I ask just because if these all came from my friends grandfather then I wonder if he picked up an early fake, maybe made for the GI's after the war. Obviously things can always get lost in translation and could have been a piece he picked up once he was back home.

  6. #15
    ?

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Hello all,

    I have the medal with me now and I see the 7 flaw. ( i hope my eyes are not making me see it thought) I do not however see the other flaw of excess material. Does this make sense to anyone?

  7. #16

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Please carefully re read post #7, there is your answer..........
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  8. #17
    ?

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Quote by dramos View Post
    I assumed as much! I ask just because if these all came from my friends grandfather then I wonder if he picked up an early fake, maybe made for the GI's after the war. Obviously things can always get lost in translation and could have been a piece he picked up once he was back home.
    Remember, Souval was Austrian based and as such, after the war, was not bound by the ban on the swastika. He continued production almost without break from before May 1945 until after. He obviously used the same tooling to produce his badges until it got worn and it was replaced or repaired.

    With this in mind and given that the souvenir industry for GI's was a very nice source of income in hard times, it is very difficult to say if a badge was made before May 1945 or in June 1945, how can we tell the difference? Same dies, same materials etc. Is the one made after May 1945 a fake, a repro, genuine? Who can tell?

  9. #18

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Quote by Adrian View Post
    Remember, Souval was Austrian based and as such, after the war, was not bound by the ban on the swastika. He continued production almost without break from before May 1945 until after. He obviously used the same tooling to produce his badges until it got worn and it was replaced or repaired.

    With this in mind and given that the souvenir industry for GI's was a very nice source of income in hard times, it is very difficult to say if a badge was made before May 1945 or in June 1945, how can we tell the difference? Same dies, same materials etc. Is the one made after May 1945 a fake, a repro, genuine? Who can tell?
    Good points there. Just to elaborate on them a little, it should be remembered that although Souval actively produced many copies of TR awards after the war, it's also a fact that the company was one of the most prominent makers of many different badges and crosses during the war.

    Based on today's knowledge of wartime badge production, original RS badges are reasonably easy to differentiate from their post war successors, based on the base material, finish and rear set ups that were used. As RS only ever used the design type 5 that was always made of zinc by all producers of that type, it shows that they could not have entered Panzerkampf Abzeichen production before 1942 at the earliest. The days of high quality Nickel Silver and Tombak/Buntmetal awards had long finished due to war restrictions, and cheap, mass production at minimum cost was required. So instead of designing their own type 5 badge, or improving the engraving on the original mass produced design like Weidmann did, they just used the stock die supplied, as did Orth, Wallpach and Hobacher.

    So based on the evolution of the rear set ups over time and the increasingly poor wash finishes applied, it's easy to see that Souval produced a huge amount of these Panzerkampf Abzeichen's over a period of time. The fact that Souval continued production after the war means the collector has to be careful when selecting a Souval badge for their collection, but it's wise to avoid the infamous RS 'claw' catch for a start, and be wary of better quality finishes that have not worn away or been absorbed, and finally, if it ain't zinc it's bad...

    Having said that, you also have to bear in mind that the company was probably using wartime stocks of materials, dies, hardware and finishes until stocks either ran out or wore out, so it would be impossible to tell the difference today. This is all part of what makes these badges contentious. The best bet imo of getting a good early production RS Panzerkampf Abzeichen is to go for one with the agreed most likely earliest variant, the 'broad maker mark'. This assumption is made because of a couple of characteristics, the hinge and catch fit perfectly in the raised lines of the rectangular hinge bed and circular guide line for the round based '?' catch. Later variants have hardware that doesn't fit as precisely, if at all. The finish, if any is still left is also of a better quality with an often reddish, coppery appearance that is never found on later types that were wash finished.

    It's my belief that the above badge has all these characteristics save perhaps the finish, which appears to have been lost. Therefore I think it's an early production Souval Panzerkampf Abzeichen and not a post war made tourist piece, but it's still debatable amongst collectors I guess....

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  10. #19

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    Quote by dramos View Post
    Hello all,

    I have the medal with me now and I see the 7 flaw. ( i hope my eyes are not making me see it thought) I do not however see the other flaw of excess material. Does this make sense to anyone?
    can you post pictures of it?

  11. #20
    ?

    Default Re: Bronze? Panzerkampfabzeichen made by Rudolf Souval

    I tried to get a picture of it but the camera on my phone is not good enough to get the fine details. I will need to find a friend with a good camera.

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