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SA or SS dagger? take a look at this 1937 NY City Photo

Article about: by youthcollector1 So he is wearing a Brownshirt similar to this? Yes. The last photo on this site...: KARANLI ...was taken at the same occasion. Under enlargement, the anchor devices on the

  1. #31

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    Quote by youthcollector1 View Post
    So he is wearing a Brownshirt similar to this?
    Yes.

    The last photo on this site...:

    KARANLI

    ...was taken at the same occasion. Under enlargement, the anchor devices on the Marine-SA men's right-hand collar patches can actually be made out.

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  3. #32

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    Most definitely an anchor, well done sir, and again, thank you for the correction. It can be quite difficult to judge the small details of these old pictures, especially on a iPhone.
    The photo,
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This gentlemen is the fifth SA Marine member from the left in the new photograph provided by HPL.
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    It's now evident he is wearing a SA marine tab with an anchor, as well SA Marine headgear.

  4. #33

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    Here is the best I could do on the collar tabs
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    gregM
    Live to ride -- Ride to live

    I was addicted to the "Hokey-Pokey" but I've turned
    myself around.

  5. #34

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    Quote by Chopperman View Post
    Here is the best I could do on the collar tabs
    I still see a NSKK signals tab in that image, but it's quite evident it isn't from the headgear and the tabs visible in the new photograph.

  6. #35

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    Talk about a game changer..and sharp eyes..Andreas switch hits to right field with a line drive of information. Thankyou sir..for the exact identity of these uniforms..which now points to this dagger being a "Marine SA dagger"...this dagger differs by an all black scabbard and grip! Below is some information about the 2 types of Marine SA dagger.

    MARINE SA DAGGER
    The SA organization had a naval component. It was much smaller than the regular group. The members of the Marine SA were authorized to wear a dagger in 1934. There were two models of marine SA daggers. They both were patterned after the 1933 model with a few differences.

    The first model displayed the following changes in relation to the 1933 model:

    1. Black annodized scabbard
    2. Black wooden handle with SA logo and eagle insert.

    The second model dagger consisted of the following characteristics:

    1. Brown scabbard
    2. Brown handle
    3. Copper or Brass fittings

    Some Marine SA scabbards have been encountered also with painted black scabbards. These daggers are considered more so rare than their SA counterpart. Below is a photo of a Marine SA dagger with black anodized scabbard and black dyed grip!
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  7. #36

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    Wow talk about a slam dunk finish to a great informative thread! That is why I love this hobby, funny thing is just a few weeks ago I saw one of these for sale and it never occured to me here, but anyway, here is the one that just sold from germanwarbooty site, the maker was Herbertz and Meurer.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #37

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    There has been some confusion over the years that all black appearance SA daggers are to be assumed...SA Marine daggers........is not true. The original SA marine daggers grips were dyed black not painted as shown in Maximus example above. Traces of the brown grip are showing through the black "paint" which this dagger was once an SA dagger.....and then crossed the threshold over to NSKK....so why is the grip black?...........

    When the order came down for men who were transferred into the NSKK from the SA were to paint their scabbards black......some assumed to paint the whole dagger black ! As you can see on the example above the scabbard is painted...which is an early period NSKK scabbard.

    Another question:...could this example above in Maxs photo been a Marine dagger? There are possibilities of transfer also. Again it boils down to if the SA marine man in question was able to afford the typical Dyed black grip and anodized scabbard...or did he do this himself? In this instance it is hard to tie the 2 together.

    Then there is a thread on the WAF seen here The myth about SA marine daggers .. an attempt to explain - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

    That says SA marine daggers were with brown grips,,black scabbards and gilt fittings as seen in the colored photos. It is my opinion..that during those years not all recruits and SA marine men had money coming out of their pockets..as seen with period paint jobs on NSKK daggers. Advanced collections have produced the early dyed anodized examples...with an anchor logo on the blade tang. An anomaly that will forever exist in collecting this type of dagger. Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  9. #38

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    A question to be asked to our Hindenburg disaster and German uniform type historians:...........

    The Marine SA is present also with other notable dignitaries during the Funeral ceremony.....I would think the Luftwaffe in some form would be present as the Hindenburg was an Airship..and would be the domain of the German Airforce or Air services. Any thoughts on why there are no present photos of Luftwaffe officers..during this ceremony? Regards Larry
    It is not the size of a Collection in History that matters......Its the size of your Passion for it!! - Larry C

    One never knows what tree roots push to the surface of what laid buried before the tree was planted - Larry C

    “The farther back you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.” - Winston Churchill

  10. #39

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    Quote by Larry C View Post
    The Marine SA is present also with other notable dignitaries during the Funeral ceremony.....I would think the Luftwaffe in some form would be present as the Hindenburg was an Airship..and would be the domain of the German Airforce or Air services. Any thoughts on why there are no present photos of Luftwaffe officers..during this ceremony? Regards Larry
    The fact that the Reich's uniformed representatives at the New York ceremony consist almost exclusively of Marine-SA men was very likely simply due to their "availability":

    The Marine-SA consisted of a high percentage of sailors, who, by the nature of their employment, were away from the Marine-SA's land-based units and facilities for most of the year. Thus, they were organized into shipboard units and continued their SA-related duties in some way or the other during their cruises. (The commander of such a unit was not necessarily the ship's captain or even one of the ship's officers, by the way.)

    Also, given the fact that these SA men travelled the world over (at least in the pre-war years...) they were used as representatives or unofficial "ambassadors" for the Nazi state in general and the SA in particular.

    The SA men present here were more than likely sailors from German ships that lay in New York harbor at the time (or perhaps even all from the Hapag ship Hamburg that carried the casualties' coffins back to Germany).

    Let me quote from the NSDAP's 1937 Organisationsbuch (translation by me):

    "The Marine-SA comprises all SA men who are or used to be professional seamen of the merchant- or military navy or boatmen on inland waters as well as those men who are in any way connected to seafaring or who have a particular interest in seafaring.
    The seagoing SA men who come into contact with other countries' population are to represent National Socialist thinking and willing. For this reason, their ideological instruction and comprehensive professional training are among the Marine-SA's main missions.
    On board, this instruction and training takes place within the shipboard units*, on land within the Marine-SA units.
    Other missions are service during disasters and accidents, particularly those that are caused by water. To this end, every Marine-SA man undergoes a thorough nautical training
    ."

    The Luftwaffe really had no direct or indirect connection to the Hindenburg, as she was a strictly civilian craft that was operated by the Deutsche Zeppelin-Reederei (DZR).



    *) "Bordtrupps" in the original text. A Trupp was the SA designation for a roughly platoon-sized formation.

  11. #40

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    Quote by HPL2008 View Post
    The Luftwaffe really had no direct or indirect connection to the Hindenburg, as she was a strictly civilian craft that was operated by the Deutsche Zeppelin-Reederei (DZR).
    Thank you.
    You've just answered a question I was about to ask.
    gregM
    Live to ride -- Ride to live

    I was addicted to the "Hokey-Pokey" but I've turned
    myself around.

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