Need opinions on Promotion Document...

[dzyner]

Hi All!

I'd like to get some opinions and feedback on this promotion document that appears to be for a school principal (translated), signed by Goering with (I think) a facsimile of Hitler's signature. I'm not familiar with these so would love to hear from some of the experts related to authenticity of the document and Goering's signature.











Thanks!
Dzyner

[hucks216]

It depends on what side of the fence you sit on. Firstly, the citation is genuine, no problems there. Now with regards to the HG signature some people (myself included) believe this variant to be some type of auto-pen and not hand signed. This is based on that no matter what year it is signed in the signatures are all the same size and tend to have the same little things.
But as it looks like the signature has pen strokes others believe them to be hand signed - although tend to ignore the same size problem.
It tends to be sellers who say it is hand signed to beef up the asking price whereas, obviously, a buyer will hope it is the auto-pen to bring the price down.

It might even be a bit of both, some hand signed and others auto-pen which does nothing to help but you could ask 100 people and get either answer.

[hucks216]

1935


1938


1944


Another variant (hand signed)

[dzyner]

Thanks for the examples, they're a huge help! I do agree that the first 3 are very similar when compared with the last one, and it would seem odd if they were all the same exact size. The one thing I am noticing though is that all 3 of the similar ones also have very obvious differences when compared with each other, as well as with the one in the document I posted. For example, look at the teardrops of the "g"s and note the softer, fluid rounded bottoms in the 1st and 3rd, while the 2nd signature shows them as having more defined corners (less fluid). Other subtly but very noticeable variances exist as well, that I would not expect from a mechanical pen. Would you agree?

Thoughts?

[stakeside]

Thanks for the examples, they're a huge help! I do agree that the first 3 are very similar when compared with the last one, and it would seem odd if they were all the same exact size. The one thing I am noticing though is that all 3 of the similar ones also have very obvious differences when compared with each other, as well as with the one in the document I posted. For example, look at the teardrops of the "g"s and note the softer, fluid rounded bottoms in the 1st and 3rd, while the 2nd signature shows them as having more defined corners (less fluid). Other subtly but very noticeable variances exist as well, that I would not expect from a mechanical pen. Would you agree?

Thoughts?

DZYNER.....I am among those who consider this particular group of signatures too similar to be hand written. For example, try writing your own signature ten times. Photograph and enlarge them for comparison. I assure you that the variances in the letters, the cadence of the strokes and overall sizes will be more than subtle.




The various documents that have this particular group of similar signatures all appear to have been formatted in such a way as to leave a certain amount of space for the embossed seal and the signatures often have similar placements to each other as well as the seal.

The auto pen probably worked off a pantograph and was programmed to start at the top of the "H" leaving a distinctive yet uniform shape. The pen would lift up abruptly at the end of the "m" with a sharp tail which never seems to penetrate the next letter. The start of the "a" at the top of its curve also has a uniform shape and does not disturb the upright stroke of the "a". The pause between the "i" and the "n" not only exhibits the same abrupt mechanical start and stop, but the spacing between the letters is just too uniform from one example to another. The final "g" has an equally crisp finish to the tail.

Over the years I would imagine many such machines were used and each one would have its own personality which would change over time due to wear and repair. Setting up the machine every day would also introduce quirks and subtle variances.

However, if you were to place several hundred of these in juxtaposition.....no one could repeat this signature over and over with more similarities than subtle differences.

[dzyner]

Stakeside, I agree with you and Hucks216 completely, having thought through this a little more, and researching auto-pens more as well. I also agree with your assumption that there were likely multiple auto-pen machines (not just one), which would easily account for variances in styles. I think placement is key as well. The examples posted here are mostly just showing the signature, not the placement of the signature within the document, but I would bet they're all very much parallel to the bottom edge of the document. When you look at known original examples of his signature (hand-written), not only is there a clearly different style, but they're not applied parallel to the bottom edge of the document. Instead they're almost all applied at an angle.

I also wondered why his hand-written signature is so starkly different from the auto-pen version. My theory is that this was by design so he could always tell the difference between the real (hand-written) version and the auto-pen version, which is just smart in my opinion.

[stakeside]

....But as it looks like the signature has pen strokes others believe them to be hand signed - although tend to ignore the same size problem.
It tends to be sellers who say it is hand signed to beef up the asking price whereas, obviously, a buyer will hope it is the auto-pen to bring the price down.

It might even be a bit of both, some hand signed and others auto-pen which does nothing to help but you could ask 100 people and get either answer.

DZYNER......I still scratch my head when considering this document which someone claims to have been ink signed by Hitler and Keitel at the WOLF 's LAIR, no less.....