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SS HIMMLER Signature? SS Document??? Any help is better than none, New TO WRF :)

Article about: Hey all, Purchased at a local estate, wondering if its real? Cant really make out the whole letter either if anyone knows what it means or says that would be fantastic, Has a salty old smell

  1. #11

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    Quote by Baugie90 View Post
    that is a good point about the later addition, was it uncommon for the documents to not have a date on it , or if an award was give the documentation award certificate would be at a later date?
    Awards, decorations and prizes were presented together with an accompanying document bearing the official award date. (Which could be before, but not after, the actual physical presentation to the awardee.)

    In the case of certain wearable wartime decorations, preliminary certificates existed which were then followed by a more elaborate official award document a short time (not years) later; but this did not apply to the SS honor sword and -ring.

    In any case, one of the purposes of an award document is proof of having actually received the award in question and getting the document only years after the fact wouldn't do at all...


    Quote by DrPMC View Post
    If the certificate had been typed up during the period I would have expected it have been torn along the serrations at the bottom of the pad, so that it could be put into the typewriter.
    A very good observation!

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  3. #12

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    So once the paper is typed, they rip off the end of the paper? Or could it just have been pulled out?

  4. #13

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    Quote by Baugie90 View Post
    So once the paper is typed, they rip off the end of the paper? Or could it just have been pulled out?
    The sheet of paper was once part of a stapled-together pad. You can clearly see the rust stains where the staples once were.

    What DrPMC correctly pointed out is this: Had the information been typed in during the period, they would have first torn the sheet of paper out of the pad along the line of perforations, with the part below the line remaining in the pad.

    The fact that this bottom section is still attached and the presence of the rust stains makes it likely that an old pad (yellowing, stains and all) was disassembled and the recipient's information typed in more recently... or even more than that, perhaps everything on it was printed/typed/stamped in the post-war period: When you think about it, it would appear a bit odd that the award forms for a significant honor would come as a tear-off pad. (And it's not even a good, evenly-spaced fine perforation). But I don't know enough about these documents to make an authoritative comment on this matter.

    One final observation: If you do a Google image search for the terms "ss ring document", you will find at least two award documents for the SS honor ring (not the sword) offered in recent auctions that also have the line of perforations and rust stains in the bottom part, which doesn't help my scepticism either.

  5. #14

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    The scent of rodent is in the air...

  6. #15

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    Hi, Some more thoughts, Even in modern day paper products, paper does not always tear out on a perf. Everyone, in haste, has torn a check from a checkbook or a page from a notebook out without folding on the perf. first. The paper tears or rips at the staples or bound area, I am now backing up HPL2008's thoughts. This would have had to be the last page of the pad, or have had the staples removed to have a clean non-altered page as this is. To me the paper stock looks period, the print and technique of print also looks period. but to have been removed from a pad without any tear or rips anywhere is quite strange, not impossible, but not likely. Then the issue of the typewritten date of 42 and not 38. Could it have been a re=issued document?? Anyhow, why a form letter?, efficiency. They would not have had these printed one by one as needed. And to add a personal touch, a "signature", a rubber stamp of Himmler's actual signature. These were made and used by anyone who had to authorize a lot of paperwork. There was more than one made, and no two signatures are the same, so these have minor differences too. The TR was a reich of record keeping, a more efficient way, and documents, paperwork paperwork paperwork. All and all the negatives are starting to pile up, but a forger would need to have had some info on the recipient, a typewriter with the SS key, and a Himmler rubber stamp, Unless the whole thing is a photocopy or "facsimile" on some old paper stock. I would have to see in person to determine this. Chemically treating paper began in the late 30's and through the 40's, but was not used commonly until after the war. So maybe a blacklight would give you an answer.

  7. #16

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    Quote by KEVIN23 View Post
    Anyhow, why a form letter?, efficiency. They would not have had these printed one by one as needed.
    Just to make it clear: These documents were pre-printed forms indeed, to which only the date, recipient's data and signature were added. What I doubt is that they came as tear-off pads...

  8. #17
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    Quote by HPL2008 View Post
    Just to make it clear: These documents were pre-printed forms indeed, to which only the date, recipient's data and signature were added. What I doubt is that they came as tear-off pads...
    Certificates to accompany all sorts of much humbler Third Reich awards are not torn out like raffle tickets so I can't imagine why one for an SS Honour Sword would have this eccentric feature.

    There are a couple of certificates for the Honour Sword pictured in the Ulrich of England book which aren't perforated as far as I can see. They also differ from the example here inasmuch that the date and place in the top right hand corner is printed as part of the certificate.

  9. #18

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    Hi, These and all printed material would come in a flat form or would have been put into book form. In looking at the document in question, one can clearly see a perf-line, and the rust spots where it was bound at some point. No one would know unless they were looking at these when they were "hot off the press". There was more than one printer doing all the printing in the TR. A perf can easily be trimmed off neatly, suitable for framing. Which brings me to the next point, I believe many such citations or documents were framed by recipient or family, this one being in the crudest form of not even being removed correctly, But still typed up. Supposedly an award for a SS officers honor sword was hand signed by H. Himmlier, but I own similar citations that are rubber stamp "signatures". A print run of one is almost unheard of except in lottery tickets and such, where there is only one winner. I wish I could examine this document in person so I could get to the bottom of the mysteries it holds. One more point, the SS officers honor sword was discontinued in 1941, so the date of 1942 doesnt add up.

  10. #19

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    seems like the dates, don't add up. So were a lot of these forms not perforated? or some were and some were not? Wish I knew who this item belonged too and how they acquired it!

  11. #20

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    must be a sad thing to see a grown man pick on a 18 year old new collector

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