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Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?

Article about: I don't have much information on these three rings, but I believe they are all from before WWII. This is the little that I know about each of these rings: 1) Ring 1: Red/Silver This ring doe

  1. #1

    Default Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?

    I don't have much information on these three rings, but I believe they are all from before WWII. This is the little that I know about each of these rings:

    1) Ring 1: Red/Silver
    This ring does not have any makers markings at all. Initially I thought this was a hand-made ring because there is a slight "leak" of red enamel onto the silver on one of the sides; on the other side, the silver sort of "leaked" on to the red enamel. On top of that, the eagles from each side are not symmetrical at all. The insignia on the front looks like a cap badge from WWI and WWII. It also has that weird line running along the inside and the outside, which I can't figure out what it is. I initially thought it was a result of someone having the ring resized, but I have no clue. That is why I thought this was a hand-made ring. So I did a tiny bit of research and I found this ring on eBay. Identical design, however, the ring seems better made and it has a maker's mark of "800" or "008" in a rectangle. But even this ring is non-symmetrical if you look at the eagles on each side.

    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?


    2) Ring 2: Red/Blue/Silver
    This ring also looks hand made to me, primarily because the middle insignia looks like someone "dotted" the pattern with silver. Its really apparent on the blue horse on the bottom. I don't know what the blue horse is, especially because Poland is always red/white. The person who sold it to me said something about it representing the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The coat of arms of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth DOES have a little bit of blue in it, and it does display the eagle and the horse. The same person who sold me this one is the same person who sold me the first ring. This one has a little more weight to it than the first one, and it feels better made. It does have a maker's mark of "800" or "008" in a rectangle, which interestingly is the same mark as the identical ring to the first ring that I found on eBay. If you look carefully, the band of the ring is the same exact thing as the other ring I found on eBay (mine does not have that band though). This is all that I can tell you about this one. No other markings.

    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?
    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?


    3) Ring 3: Silver
    This was sold to me by a totally different seller. He told me that this was found in Latvia, which was once part of Poland. He told me the ring is silver proof 373 (I have no way of verifying). It has two markings, one of which to me looks most like AT in an oval (but it could also look like 2V or JV in an oval). He told me that the other marking is a Nefertiti head, but I just can't see how he got that (its in the images). Its something but I really just cannot make it out. He sent me this link, and said that it looks like "JV 1922-1939", which interestingly isn't even listed on there. Other than that, I have no information on the ring.

    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?


    Can anyone help me identify any information about these rings? Also, I apologize if this is posted in the wrong forum. I am thinking its from this era.

  2. #2

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    Hello Zarski. sorry, this will not be a pleasant reply. The market is flooded with all sorts of fake rings of varying quality levels. All three of these are examples that I would never consider adding to my collection unless there was rock solid provenance. These, however, are newly made and will have no provenance. The first two enameled ones are perfect examples of the stuff flogged for years now on ebay and elsewhere, many hailing from sellers based in the Baltic states or the Ukraine. Poland also. The third ring is only marginally better as far as replicating a well worn piece, but also newly made. The only value these have is in the silver content, assuming that they are in fact silver. Have you tested them? Sorry again.

    Regards,
    Tony
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  3. #3

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    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    Hello Zarski. sorry, this will not be a pleasant reply. The market is flooded with all sorts of fake rings of varying quality levels. All three of these are examples that I would never consider adding to my collection unless there was rock solid provenance. These, however, are newly made and will have no provenance. The first two enameled ones are perfect examples of the stuff flogged for years now on ebay and elsewhere, many hailing from sellers based in the Baltic states or the Ukraine. Poland also. The third ring is only marginally better as far as replicating a well worn piece, but also newly made. The only value these have is in the silver content, assuming that they are in fact silver. Have you tested them? Sorry again.

    Regards,
    Tony
    Well that's unfortunate. Luckily the first two weren't very expensive at all. The third one is from my go-to seller who has sold me several other pieces that are confirmed to be genuine (not rings though). I was really pulling for that one to be genuine, but he even said he can't say much about the ring except that it might be from that Estonian maker he linked me to. No chance that the third ring could be legitimate? But I am not very surprised about the first two.

  4. #4

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    During WW2 many Polish soldiers with varying degrees of talent created a myriad of "warsztat" field made items with a patriotic motif for themselves and their brothers in arms. These included not only rings but bracelets, cigarette cases, money clips, and uniform insignia to name only a few. Similarly crude rings were produced in WW1 era pre-independence years, and also in the WW2 POW camps. Many sellers of these modern 'fakes' are banking on prospective buyers taking the bait that they are genuine rings. Once again, provenance is everything.

    Quote by Zarski843 View Post
    . . . No chance that the third ring could be legitimate?
    Here's your answer. Took me about a minute to find. Currently up for sale as an original. Look familiar?

    Regards,
    Tony
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?  
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote by A.J. Zawadzki View Post
    During WW2 many Polish soldiers with varying degrees of talent created a myriad of "warsztat" field made items with a patriotic motif for themselves and their brothers in arms. These included not only rings but bracelets, cigarette cases, money clips, and uniform insignia to name only a few. Similarly crude rings were produced in WW1 era pre-independence years, and also in the WW2 POW camps. Many sellers of these modern 'fakes' are banking on prospective buyers taking the bait that they are genuine rings. Once again, provenance is everything.



    Here's your answer. Took me about a minute to find. Currently up for sale as an original. Look familiar?

    Regards,
    Tony
    Yup, that ring looks identical to mine. This silver ring however never looked like a "warsztat" ring, and by that it does not look hand-made or poorly made at all. It always looked more like something that a jeweler made with a mold for the ring. Especially since it has those two stamps on it, I just assumed that it was made in a factory or by a jeweler using a mold. So if the jeweler had a mold, is it possibly that there are multiple that were produced, which explains why there is an identical ring on Allegro?

    I am sorry if I am being annoying! The person who sold this to me has sold me several other genuine items, and he has always been upfront if an item is a copy or fake. He wasn't able to confirm this ring, but he said that everything to him made it seem genuine. The other two rings, I am not surprised they are fake. Disappointed, but not surprised at all.
    Last edited by Zarski843; 02-04-2017 at 07:26 PM.

  6. #6

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    No worries, you're not being annoying by asking honest questions. It's understood that you want the ring to be a genuine period piece.

    Quote by Zarski843 View Post
    . . . This silver ring however never looked like a "warsztat" ring, and by that it does not look hand-made or poorly made at all.
    To my eye it does, the crudely rendered eagle, all around roughness of execution. But having said that, even some 'professionally' produced rings had some crudeness to them. All depends on the maker and what market is was produced for - i.e mass produced or a custom piece.

    Quote by Zarski843 View Post
    It always looked more like something that a jeweler made with a mold for the ring. Especially since it has those two stamps on it, I just assumed that it was made in a factory or by a jeweler using a mold.
    Rest assured, counterfeiters also use molds in their factories, and then stamp their products with fake hallmarks.

    Quote by Zarski843 View Post
    So if the jeweler had a mold, is it possibly that there are multiple that were produced, which explains why there is an identical ring on Allegro?
    It all depends on how hard you want to convince yourself that this ring is real. The evidence is stacked up steep against this one.

    By the way, the allegro seller with this ring has about two dozen other rings for sale, including these:

    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?

    As I said earlier, provenance is king. Not some story from a seller, even one with a good reputation. There's so much crap out there on the market that some will find its way into reputable hands. As much as you want to believe this ring is real, so will a dealer who wants a return on his investment.

    If you're serious about military ring collecting you'll first want to study up on known genuine examples. It will take time and effort, but you will eventually train your eye on what to look for. The fakes will then become that much more apparent. And before laying out any cash for the more basic rings you'll want ones that have a provable past association with a veteran. And you'll eventually want to add some examples in this league that are somewhat less risky to purchase, but also more costly:

    Cheers,
    Tony
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?   Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?  

    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?   Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?  

    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?  
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  7. #7

    Default

    Makes complete sense. Oh well, I guess I'll chalk these three rings up as a loss!

    Would you happen to know anyone who is selling genuine rings? Or perhaps with your expertise, could you locate one online for me that isn't extremely expensive? I apologize that I'm asking so much. I just want one good ring!

    How about something like this? Seems closer to what you posted. But at the same time, these counterfeiters are probably VERY good at what they do.

  8. #8

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    Sorry, I do not know any sellers. And that ebay ring you linked is as terrible as the rest. If you want a genuine ring you will need patience, and considerably more cash than the $65 "Buy it Now" price for that poor replica. And you won’t likely find it on ebay. In the interim, study up on what to look for in genuine pieces. Don't rush into any purchase.

    I've been after a good pre-WW2 officer's ring of the type pictured in my prior post for a long time. All but one of those pictured were up for auction at some time over the past 15 years, and in every case I was outbid. The only ring I presently have in my collection is this Haller Army one, cleverly made from the small commemorative badge issued to vets. Best wishes in your hunt.

    Cheers,
    Tony
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?   Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?  

    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

  9. #9

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    I understand. Final strange question for you...would you sell me one from your collection? I just want something Polish and "patriotic" looking. It could be your least favorite one, as long as it's genuine!

  10. #10

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    As mentioned, it's the only ring my collection contains. And sorry, not for sale at the moment. But be patient, the right one will come along. The "must have now" impulse is a fatal one in this hobby. Successful collectors are those that are disciplined, and while awaiting the right piece to come into the crosshairs are biding their time in research and study. Also helpful is to squirrel away some cash, to build up a war chest, so when that ring of your dreams surfaces you are ready and waiting with plenty of ammo on hand to take the prize. And how much will you need? Here are results from two past auctions and one "Buy it Now". Approx.. currency conversion is 4 zł to $1 US. Start saving!

    Cheers,
    T.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?   Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?  

    Can anyone provide any more information about these three patriotic rings?  
    All thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical and/or legal advice.

    "Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday." - John Wayne

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