The Changing Map of Poland

[Datrus]

The only problem is that the shifting of the boarders is something that was soviet and some western powers made, the soviets drew a new map and the "some" western powers who couldn't care less didn't oppose it.

Not entirely correct. I goes further back than that. Instead of writing a long post, i will post link to a short video on the historical borders. Kresy might be stolen land, no problem but Poland also possesses stolen land today. The Eastern borders with Germany is a good example.

Polish borders - YouTube

Regards, Lars

[meyle77]

Not stolen but received as replacement for Kresy from the "allies".

[Datrus]

Receiving stolen goods stolen good as replacement. Where is the logic here? So if i get one of my helmets stolen, then i can just get a new one which is also stolen, from my "allies"?

Regards, Lars

[meyle77]

Receiving stolen goods stolen good as replacement. Where is the logic here? So if i get one of my helmets stolen, then i can just get a new one which is also stolen, from my "allies"?

Regards, Lars

We didn't receive them - the "deal" was forced on us - also some lands received are more Polish than German so the whole subject is a bit touchy. As you know idea for the Allies to go to war was to re-establish Poland as of September 1939. Western Allies sold Poland to Russia, hence the border changes. Poland had nothing to say about the border changes and Western Allies were not really interested in the fate of Poland as of 1944. What was Poland to do in 1945 - lose Kresy and refuse to take former German lands as compensation ? Poland lost more land in WWII than Germany. Also, Germany lost the war and surrendered so territorial changes were to be expected. Poland was never at war with Russia so where is the logic you ask ?

[meyle77]

Here is map of Poland at the Golden Age of the Commonwealth.

[Cenowski]

The video for the most part shows Polish Eastern boarders far beyond the Kresy. But Beyond the Kresy is not what is in dispute as much of this was Empire and not state. I never said Poland never gained any territory, but in no way does it make the stealing of the Kresy acceptable or right. Ofcourse its an issue familar to many countries, especially on the right hand side of the allied divide of Europe from 45

[Reynard]

Alas, such was the nature of the politics of the day; you only need to look at the aftermath of WW1 and the terms of the Treaty of Versailles... Bits of Germany were doled out to Belgium (Eupen Malmedy), France (Alsace Lorraine) and Czechoslovakia (Sudetenland) as well as to the newly reinstated Poland i.e. Posen etc... My grandmother's family were ethnically German, but had become Poles-by-choice.

Then of course, the same happened after WW2. But given that those assorted borders have shifted around for centuries, from the time where most of mainland Europe was nothing more than a collection of independent city states, who is right and who is wrong? What has been stolen and what has not? If you look at it from that perspective, in the end, it's just an age-long game of tit-for-tat...

[meyle77]

Agree - definition of Kresy depends on the time period. The today use of word Kresy describes land east of 1945 border to the east 1939 border.

[meyle77]

Alas, such was the nature of the politics of the day; you only need to look at the aftermath of WW1 and the terms of the Treaty of Versailles... Bits of Germany were doled out to Belgium (Eupen Malmedy), France (Alsace Lorraine) and Czechoslovakia (Sudetenland) as well as to the newly reinstated Poland i.e. Posen etc... My grandmother's family were ethnically German, but had become Poles-by-choice.

Then of course, the same happened after WW2. But given that those assorted borders have shifted around for centuries, from the time where most of mainland Europe was nothing more than a collection of independent city states, who is right and who is wrong? What has been stolen and what has not? If you look at it from that perspective, in the end, it's just an age-long game of tit-for-tat...

Poland or the commonwealth was not the collection of city states - neither was Spain, Portugal, England or France. The smaller states were mainly in central Europe - today Holland, Switzerland, Germany and Italy.

[Cenowski]

Reynard, a lot of the areas that Poland won in the treaty of Versailles was already taken by the Polish in the Greater Poland Uprising, and was inhabited by many Polish and had been parts of Poland well before WW1 could ever of been imagined. Places such as Poznań and Bydgoszcz. It was not a case of the being doled out, these areas were areas that were fought for time after time.